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Old May 1st, 2008, 04:57 PM   #1
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Looking for reach...Rode NT-2 or built in mike

Hello All,

I've been looking for a mike that has some reach to it re: run and gun video.

So I ordered a Rode NT2 based on what I have read here. I almost purchased a Sennheiser M-66 and will try that next if the Rode NT2 doesn't work.

More and more of my gigs are from up to 30 to 100ft. away from the sound source.

The sound sources run from acoustic p.a. to rock band p.a....big difference I know.

Will the NT2 or some other mike reach out there further to get a better sound?

I have several small and large diaphram condenser mikes that I can run through a board and run directly into the A-1. However, they aren't practical for the run and gun video that I want to do.

So, what say you?

I'm hoping that someone has a mike to recommend that covers a lot of ground for my A-1.

Truth is, I would like to avoid lavalier mikes...I've used a few and the sound is good...but they don't work well for run and gun video.

I have done a search but I'm not finding much on run and gun distance sound. If you have some suggested threads, thank you.

The response, something like "there are tons of threads out there if you do a search" is pretty useless.

Thanks to any and all of you that help out here.

Take care.

Rog Lee
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Old May 1st, 2008, 05:06 PM   #2
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In simple terms, microphones do not "reach out" a shotgun does not grab distant sounds better. a shotgun simply rejects sounds that are not directly in front of the mic. for instance, a shotgun aimed at the stage will reject the people behind the camera somewhat. it will still record all the sounds directly in front at the same level of a regular mic, but it will somewhat mute side and rear sounds. some mics are more sensitive, some kind of mute certian angles, but none are going to pick up a sound 30 foot away without getting every sound in between louder than the intended source. The questions would be, can you use a wireless mic on the PA or soundboard? can you use a sound recorder like the zoom H2, and substitute that audio in post? or are you ok with recording the crowd sounds?
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Old May 1st, 2008, 05:23 PM   #3
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Thanks Allen,

Good point.

I think what you are saying is that there isn't much of a substitute for a mike close up....that's been true for years with live audio and recorded audio sound when making a music CD. Still true today.

If what I'm familiar with is true....there isn't much point in a shotgun mike as it can't do much more than a built in mike.

Thanks.

Rog Lee
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Old May 1st, 2008, 06:03 PM   #4
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30 feet for a person talking would be a strech - but 30 feet for a band can work fine

in general stay away from shotguns indoors - a shotgun mic is designed to reject noise coming in off axis - if there is not much off axis sound they work well - but in an acoustically live environment with a lot extraneous and reflected noise - the “rejected” sound is colored, and the reflected sound more noticeable.

A small diaphragm condenser mic, like the senn me64, is a much better choice.

Maximize the signal to noise ratio by running the audio as hot as possible. If possible run the audio to both channels and set channel two 8-12db below channel one. That way if channel one does peak you have a back-up.
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Old May 1st, 2008, 06:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Ralph View Post
30 feet for a person talking would be a strech - but 30 feet for a band can work fine

in general stay away from shotguns indoors - a shotgun mic is designed to reject noise coming in off axis - if there is not much off axis sound they work well - but in an acoustically live environment with a lot extraneous and reflected noise - the “rejected” sound is colored, and the reflected sound more noticeable.

A small diaphragm condenser mic, like the senn me64, is a much better choice.

Maximize the signal to noise ratio by running the audio as hot as possible. If possible run the audio to both channels and set channel two 8-12db below channel one. That way if channel one does peak you have a back-up.
Peter and Allen,

Thanks for your responses. Both of you provided some helpful information.

Thanks again.

Last edited by Roger Lee; May 2nd, 2008 at 01:52 AM.
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 07:14 AM   #6
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Is stereo sound important? to you. That can present additional issues.

The Shure web site has a section on white papers/technical information that gives good overview into how mics work, and shotguns, as well as other items of potential interest. There is even one on audio for video and on the myth of mic reach!
http://shure.com/ProAudio/TechLibrar...cles/index.htm

As noted above, shotgun mic "reach" is really a combination of rejection of sound reaching the microphone from its side and rear coupled in many cases with increased amplification of sounds from the front of the mic. The degree of rejection of sound from the sides and rear depends on the design of the mic, the angle of the sound, and frequency of the sound. It can be a rather complex patten with rejection ranging from well over 20 dB at some angles and frequencies to virtually no rejection at others. As you can imagine it can really mess up the sound of program material like music in an indoor environment where there are room acoustics involved.

If using a separate recorder and doing sound sync in post does not work for you, consider using a high quality wireless mic system, with a wireless transmitters connected to good mics (or the sound board output). While not as good as the same mics wired, it gives you plenty of freedom of movement and can enable mic placement where you maybe able to minimize issues of excessive crowd noise.

And FWIW, many folks feel the NTG-2 is a good shotgun mic, especially for its price point.

Note that a shotgun is not normally what you would want for high quality music, and it (like most high output condenser microphones) might run into issues with the sound pressure levels (SPL) encountered at rock concerts. For rock concerts, drum lines, and other very loud sound sources you would probably want a mic that is rated for SPL above 125 dB.
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 08:15 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Don Palomaki View Post
And FWIW, many folks feel the NTG-2 is a good shotgun mic, especially for its price point.
There's a new RODE NTG-3 shotgun just about here if you can wait to check it out. It's $US599, 48V no battery, has some excellent low noise specs and it's 2cm shorter than the NTG-2.
Cheers.
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 03:44 PM   #8
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Thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate the time you all have taken to respond.

Actually, I do have some good large and small diaphram mikes but they are somewhat impractical in the run and gun situation.

Thanks for all the info. I'll check it out.

Rog Lee
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 04:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Allan Black View Post
There's a new RODE NTG-3 shotgun just about here if you can wait to check it out. It's $US599, 48V no battery, has some excellent low noise specs and it's 2cm shorter than the NTG-2.
Cheers.
Allan, I checked out the Rode website and couldn't find a mention of this mike.

Thanks

Rog Lee
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 04:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Palomaki View Post
Is stereo sound important? to you. That can present additional issues.

The Shure web site has a section on white papers/technical information that gives good overview into how mics work, and shotguns, as well as other items of potential interest. There is even one on audio for video and on the myth of mic reach!
http://shure.com/ProAudio/TechLibrar...cles/index.htm
Don, good article. Thanks. It did clear up a bit of a misconception that I had.

Thanks
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Old May 2nd, 2008, 04:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Roger Lee View Post
Allan, I checked out the Rode website and couldn't find a mention of this mike.

Thanks

Rog Lee
No it's not up there yet, but it is coming soon.
Cheers.
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Old May 7th, 2008, 05:08 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Don Palomaki View Post
And FWIW, many folks feel the NTG-2 is a good shotgun mic, especially for its price point.
I used one on my first short a couple weeks ago, and I was very happy with the results. Instead of using the XLR ports on the camera, I ran it through a Firewire media interface connected to my laptop, recorded all the sound to disk and then synched it in post. Might be the one thing I didn't have any problems with. :-)

Later, I shot some video using the mic connected to the camera XLR input and there was a *wee* bit of latency in the audio that I had to clean up, undoubtedly due to the 20 feet of cable.
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Old May 7th, 2008, 05:36 PM   #13
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Thanks Sean for the input. I just got the NTG-2 but haven't tried it out.

I'll probably send it back because what I'm looking for it to do, it won't work.

Thanks again.

Rog Lee
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Old May 10th, 2008, 05:54 AM   #14
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there was a *wee* bit of latency in the audio that I had to clean up, undoubtedly due to the 20 feet of cable.
Not likely due to cable length. Electrical signals move down a wire at a substantial portion of the speed of light. It would take many miles of wire to introduce even a half frame of latency due to wire length.

There may be other issues causing latency, and the most common folks encounter is the different signal conversion paths (D/A converters, buffering, etc. ) taken by the audio and video signals.
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