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Canon XH Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XH G1S / G1 (with SDI), Canon XH A1S / A1 (without SDI).


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Old May 27th, 2008, 07:58 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees van Duijvenbode View Post
Marcel,
As the author of the REALITY preset I'm very curious about the changes you made. Can you please share them?
Kees,

As promised, here is a quick example of footage I shot with the modified REALITY preset. I'm pretty pleased with the results. It's straight out of the camera with no color grading. Let me know what you think.

Update: Here is the complete, edited project using only the preset, no color grading:

http://exposureroom.com/members/mvan...23b13748e8f66/
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Old May 28th, 2008, 05:51 AM   #317
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Marcel,

Very nice footage. In what way did you modify my preset?
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Old May 28th, 2008, 07:59 AM   #318
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I made the following changes:

Color Gain 20

Red Gain 1

Blue Gain 4

Sharpness 0

Black Press

And I renamed it REALSHP so I can keep them separate.
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Old May 28th, 2008, 08:48 AM   #319
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I have a question:

What should be done?: Set the custom preset and then set the right color temperature or do it the other way around?



and...

Thanks for the new CP, Marcel. I will add it to the collection to test it together with all other CP's in Versio 2.0 of the CP Movie.
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Old May 28th, 2008, 11:48 AM   #320
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Marcel,

Would you mind elaborating on what your modifications do for the "look" of the video in relation to the REALITY preset? What were your goals when modifying REALITY?
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Old May 28th, 2008, 12:56 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deke Ryland View Post
Marcel,

Would you mind elaborating on what your modifications do for the "look" of the video in relation to the REALITY preset? What were your goals when modifying REALITY?
I liked the overall look of the REALITY preset but to my eyes, it had a little bit of a red bias and was a touch oversaturated. Also, I wanted a bit more contrast and sharpness.

Everyone has their own idea of what "real" looks like. The end results satisfied mine. That's the cool thing about the A1.

This is the first video that I've shot with the A1 where I didn't feel the need to do any color grading in post. And for those special occasions where you need the colors to "pop" a slight boost to saturation in post is all that's needed.
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Old May 28th, 2008, 08:09 PM   #322
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Hey Marcel,

Thanks for the modded preset. I'll be sure to give it a test this weekend and check it out. Myself, I like the REALITY preset, but find it has a bit of a bias towards yellow, not red. I haven't done any indoor shooting with it however, and have only shot with it in sunny outdoors.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 08:17 AM   #323
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Is it possible that when one sees a little bias to red and another sees a litle bias to yellow that we are talking about WB issues? With the Wb switches set to preset and K I can easily change my footage from reddish to blueish by changing the K value. So I second Gerts question: should WB be made based on the K value of the lighting and/or time and conditions of the day once (before changing presets) or every time after changing to a different preset. And is changing the K value more reliable than WB via a white card / grey card / white paper / white subject?
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Old May 29th, 2008, 10:52 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees van Duijvenbode View Post
Is it possible that when one sees a little bias to red and another sees a litle bias to yellow that we are talking about WB issues? With the Wb switches set to preset and K I can easily change my footage from reddish to blueish by changing the K value. So I second Gerts question: should WB be made based on the K value of the lighting and/or time and conditions of the day once (before changing presets) or every time after changing to a different preset. And is changing the K value more reliable than WB via a white card / grey card / white paper / white subject?
Personally, I change the preset, then do the white balance. Unless I'm experimenting with new settings, I normally stick to the same preset all day, but change the white balance at each new location - sometime for each shot - as the sun gets higher then lower in the sky and the cloud cover changes.

Instinct tells me that the two things should be independant, that the white balance setting should depend on the colour temperature of the light entering the lens, and so be calibrated before any image tweak parameters are processed, but I really don't know whether this is true. If I think of it, I'll do some experiments at the weekend. (OT: I'm hoping to shoot 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley on the East Coast Main Line on Saturday then 6233 Duchess of Sutherland and 60019 Bittern on the LSW main line on Sunday - let's hope the weather's kind!)
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Old May 29th, 2008, 10:58 AM   #325
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I'm sure that is a factor. I white balance immediately after changing presets or turning on the camera and for outdoors typically use the same K value. I guess the point is that if I switch from say PANNLOOK2 to REALITY and follow the same white ballance routine on the same day...within minutes of each other, the resulting footage using REALITY, at least to me, has a red bias. I certainly don't want to have to artificially adjust the K value to compensate for a color bias on a given preset. Too much to remember.

As I said earlier, the REALSHP preset, for me at least, fixed that and added a touch more contrast and sharpness. It's all about perception and personal preference.
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Old May 31st, 2008, 04:46 AM   #326
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After several emails with Canon about the white balance question they finaly managed to read the whole email.

I asked them the same question I did here on the forum: Should I do a white balance and then use the custom preset, or the other way around?

The answer of Canon:
First set the camera to default (switch off any preset) and then do a manual white balance or use the right (K)elvin value. Then switch on presets and choose the one you want to use.
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Old May 31st, 2008, 06:35 AM   #327
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Canon's answer is very interesting.

It would be nice to run some tests doing it:

1. The way Canon suggested (first turning off the active custom preset, then performing white balance, then selecting and activating the desired custom preset), versus

2. First selecting and activating the desired custom preset and then performing white balancing.

I think some controlled tests using both methods would be in order.

I have always used Option 2 and have been happy with the results.
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Old May 31st, 2008, 08:35 AM   #328
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I also use method two. Perhaps it's more important to pick a method and stick with it as determining which is better is probably more subjective than objective.
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Old May 31st, 2008, 09:55 AM   #329
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The reason why I asked Canon is:

The Canon XH-A1 has several ways to set the white balance. Canon has made the two settings on the camera (outside: 5600 Kelvin and inside with light: 3200 Kelvin) which are both exactly the way they should be. They used external equipment to make every camera like this. You could say: they tuned every camera on those two settings (it would be interesting to test that. Set both cameras to neutral and look at the picture they produce. Providing every setting is the same).

With the third method the camera can be set to a certain (K)elvin setting. That's because sunlight changes over the day. In the early hours the light is a bit blue, during the afternoon (depending on the weather) the color temperature goes up from 4000 to 5600 of even higher 7000+ Kelvin) and in the evening when the sun goes down the light changes to red, yellow, 'gold' colors.

In all three settings (sun, lamp and Kelvin) red, green and blue are changed in the same proportion. But, when using the manual white balance, the camera will try to set those three colors (red, green and blue) apart from each other so they will produce a nice white color of the object in front of the camera.

But.....how do you know if it is really white? It may be a bit yellow, or green, or blue...almost invisible to our eyes. (Go to a hardware store and look how many different sorts of white paint there are) The camera will try to correct that to a nice 'white' surface, meaning it will change all three colors (red, green and blue) leaving the fixed proportion between those three. That could mean in the new picture there is a lot more red, blue or green to get the right white and that means it will also change every change you wanted to have with the preset. For instant: Your CP has a RED +3 and after the manual white balance the camera corrected the camera RED with -3, the whole effect of the CP is gone.

So...what to do?

Set the camera to 5600 or 3200, or just use the Kelvin setting to produce the right white balance. Don't use the manual setting...(yet).
After that, use the custom presets to change the settings of the camera. After all, that's exactly what they are meant for.

And....let's assume you like the CP of Kees: REALITY and you want to make video recordings between sunrise and sunset...that would mean you have to use several versions of the custom preset. Just because the light outside changes from blue to red in the evening.
Of course this will not mean you have to correct the camera to a white balance where white is white again. For instance: a white surface in the evening sun will have a yellow, orange, gold color. If you correct that too much every other color should become pale and the whole picture is not like it should be.

So, I think I would produce three different CP's of REALITY. One for 3200K, one for 5600 and one for 7000 Kelvin. Each with their own little changes so the picture will be like YOU want it to be....and that is exactly the meaning of CP's.....you make a few and use them during the day so you don't have to go in to the menu to change all settings which takes a freaking long time to do.

1. Set white balance
2. Set CP (after choosing or making the right one)
3. Use camera

and not the other way around...

(The whole story came up after reading a very interesting article written by Nigel Cooper).
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Old May 31st, 2008, 12:42 PM   #330
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That's all well and good but I think we are fogetting that the ultimate goal is to produce the look that you want...by whatever means you like. My personal feeling is that it's good to have foundational knowledge about how things work...it's a good failsafe should all else fail. That being said, at least for me, following a strict set of steps because you feel you "Have to", interupts the creative process. If you produce an image that is pleasing to the viewer, no one is going to jump up and say "Wait, it may look good, but it can't be good because he set his CP prior to white-balancing..."

I do think the information that Gert provided is valuable...especially if you just got the camera and have no idea where to begin. And for many, that will be the way they always do it. It's also helpful in understanding why some things happen. But just like a golf swing, one swing does not fits all. So many golfers focus on perfecting the swing instead of the goal, which is getting the ball in the hole in the least amount of strokes.

So too, I think, with setting up the A1. There are endless possiblities, some, I'm sure, are yet to be discovered. To me, getting the look you want and being able to repeat it is all that really matters.

Now stepping down from my soap box while looking over my shoulder for the Canon CP police :)
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