Interlaced 30f at DVinfo.net

Mitch Hunt · September 23rd, 2009, 05:29 PM

I normally shoot in HD 30f but I'm having troubles with my editing system (here's the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attend-w...stability.html). So I have decided to shoot in SD 30f for the time being, but guess what, Another problem! The supposedly progressive 30f mode captures as interlaced 60i in Premiere Pro. The final output will be for web.

Which leads to another question, is there a difference in quality between shooting in progressive on the A1 to begin with and deinterlacing 60i in post?

Any Ideas?

Danny Winn · September 23rd, 2009, 07:13 PM

You can capture at HDV 1080p 30. When you're setting up your project and it asks you to select your "new sequence" settings, select "HDV" under the available presets, then select "HDV 1080p 30. I've been using this setting since i got my XH A1s, it's beautiful!

If you have to use SD, just make sure your export settings are set to progressive, that's all I've ever used, I never use interlaced.

Michael Hutson · September 23rd, 2009, 07:17 PM

I agree, I think it is your nle.....not the camera.

Refer to page 40 of xha1 manual.

Michael Galvan · September 23rd, 2009, 07:17 PM

Well remember, in SD modes, it is recording to the DV standard. So both 24F and 30F progressive modes will be laid down on tape as an interlaced stream.

In 30F, both fields will be comprised of the same frame, so in essence, it is still progressive. 24F will have a pulldown added.

The modes will stay fully progressive in HD mode, no laying on tape as interlaced.

Mitch Hunt · September 23rd, 2009, 08:01 PM

The 30f videos really are interlaced. It's apparent just by watching them. In both Premiere and AE they are identified as interlaced in the interpret footage dialog box. Why?

Mitch Hunt · October 8th, 2009, 06:00 PM

Here's a sample clip shot in 24f, but is still interlaced. What's going on?

http://www.archive.org/download/Rive...rlaced_24f.avi

Brian Ford · October 8th, 2009, 06:54 PM

That interlacing has to be coming from your editing workflow. The .avi you provided is 720x480 at 29.97fps. Your NLE must be set up to render as NTSC interlaced. I use vegas, not premiere, but there must be some way for you to set the project as progressive..

Mitch Hunt · October 8th, 2009, 07:38 PM

That is the RAW untranscoded video from the A1 shot in 24f DV 16/9. Premiere interprets it as 720x480 23.976 Lower Field First. It was captured in a DV 24p project.

Michael Galvan · October 8th, 2009, 09:31 PM

I just looked at y our clip, and it seems fine.

Remember, 24F in SD is exactly how the DVX dealt with 24P. There is a 3:2 pulldown added to conform it to 60i (29.97). I just took your clip and did a reverse 3:2 pulldown removal, and extracted the 24F just fine.

24F is only laid to tape in as native 24 frames if shot in HDV mode.

Mitch Hunt · October 8th, 2009, 10:52 PM

How would I do a reverse 3:2 pulldown removal in Premiere? In the interpret footage dialogue box there is a check mark next to: "Remove 24p DV pulldown". This is the first time I've ever dealt with 24p video, so if you could explain it to me I would appreciate it.

Mitch Hunt · October 9th, 2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Galvan

Well remember, in SD modes, it is recording to the DV standard. So both 24F and 30F progressive modes will be laid down on tape as an interlaced stream.

So Michael, are you saying that the A1 cannot shoot in SD progressively, only HD? If that is true what is the difference between 30i and 30f in SD? Thanks

Michael Galvan · October 9th, 2009, 04:22 PM

Mitch,

Yes, it totally shoots and lays as progressive in SD as well as HD.

The difference is in HD, it lays it at 24 discrete frames per second to tape and that's it. You can capture it into your editing system 1:1.

In SD, if you shot 24F, it lays it to tape as 60i by introducing a 3:2 pulldown (or 3:2:2:3 pulldown - you can choose which method in camera). Every DV camera that shoots 24 progressive does a pulldown as the minidV standard is 60i.

So in order to reclaim the 24F which has been embedded in the stream, is to remove it, either upon capture, or after capturing to 60i, and thus bringing it back to true 24 frames.

in 30P(F), you can capture as 60i and leave it because both fields will be the same, hence it essentially being progressive.

Sorry, I only edit mainly with Final Cut Pro and Avid, so I don't know the workings of premiere.

Hope this helps.

Mitch Hunt · October 10th, 2009, 02:51 PM

So what is the best way to remove pulldown? Is pulldown removal necessary for both 24f and 30f in SD? Premiere sees the 24f and 30f videos as interlaced and deinterlaces them; will this degrade the image quality? The deinterlacing also uses more system resources, slowing the whole editing process down.

Peter Manojlovic · October 10th, 2009, 06:58 PM

Mitch, although i don't shoot in 30FPS, i believe the trick in Premiere, is to work on a 29.97fps timeline (interlaced), but upon export, choose the progressive output. Internally, PPro treats it as interlaced....
Although, i'm not working with CS4 currently, take it with a grain of salt...

Mitch Hunt · October 12th, 2009, 04:09 PM

Peter, won't Premiere deinterlace the video? If so, what is the advantage of shooting in 30f over 60i?

September 23rd, 2009, 05:29 PM	#1
Mitch Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Broken Bow, NE Posts: 145	Interlaced 30f I normally shoot in HD 30f but I'm having troubles with my editing system (here's the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attend-w...stability.html). So I have decided to shoot in SD 30f for the time being, but guess what, Another problem! The supposedly progressive 30f mode captures as interlaced 60i in Premiere Pro. The final output will be for web. Which leads to another question, is there a difference in quality between shooting in progressive on the A1 to begin with and deinterlacing 60i in post? Any Ideas?

September 23rd, 2009, 07:17 PM	#4
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Well remember, in SD modes, it is recording to the DV standard. So both 24F and 30F progressive modes will be laid down on tape as an interlaced stream. In 30F, both fields will be comprised of the same frame, so in essence, it is still progressive. 24F will have a pulldown added. The modes will stay fully progressive in HD mode, no laying on tape as interlaced. __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

October 8th, 2009, 09:31 PM	#9
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	I just looked at y our clip, and it seems fine. Remember, 24F in SD is exactly how the DVX dealt with 24P. There is a 3:2 pulldown added to conform it to 60i (29.97). I just took your clip and did a reverse 3:2 pulldown removal, and extracted the 24F just fine. 24F is only laid to tape in as native 24 frames if shot in HDV mode. __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

October 9th, 2009, 04:22 PM	#12
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Mitch, Yes, it totally shoots and lays as progressive in SD as well as HD. The difference is in HD, it lays it at 24 discrete frames per second to tape and that's it. You can capture it into your editing system 1:1. In SD, if you shot 24F, it lays it to tape as 60i by introducing a 3:2 pulldown (or 3:2:2:3 pulldown - you can choose which method in camera). Every DV camera that shoots 24 progressive does a pulldown as the minidV standard is 60i. So in order to reclaim the 24F which has been embedded in the stream, is to remove it, either upon capture, or after capturing to 60i, and thus bringing it back to true 24 frames. in 30P(F), you can capture as 60i and leave it because both fields will be the same, hence it essentially being progressive. Sorry, I only edit mainly with Final Cut Pro and Avid, so I don't know the workings of premiere. Hope this helps. __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

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September 23rd, 2009, 07:13 PM	#2
Danny Winn Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 291	You can capture at HDV 1080p 30. When you're setting up your project and it asks you to select your "new sequence" settings, select "HDV" under the available presets, then select "HDV 1080p 30. I've been using this setting since i got my XH A1s, it's beautiful! If you have to use SD, just make sure your export settings are set to progressive, that's all I've ever used, I never use interlaced.

September 23rd, 2009, 07:17 PM	#3
Michael Hutson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Elgin, IL Posts: 249	I agree, I think it is your nle.....not the camera. Refer to page 40 of xha1 manual.

September 23rd, 2009, 08:01 PM	#5
Mitch Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Broken Bow, NE Posts: 145	The 30f videos really are interlaced. It's apparent just by watching them. In both Premiere and AE they are identified as interlaced in the interpret footage dialog box. Why?

October 8th, 2009, 06:00 PM	#6
Mitch Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Broken Bow, NE Posts: 145	Here's a sample clip shot in 24f, but is still interlaced. What's going on? http://www.archive.org/download/Rive...rlaced_24f.avi

October 8th, 2009, 06:54 PM	#7
Brian Ford Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 42	That interlacing has to be coming from your editing workflow. The .avi you provided is 720x480 at 29.97fps. Your NLE must be set up to render as NTSC interlaced. I use vegas, not premiere, but there must be some way for you to set the project as progressive..

October 8th, 2009, 07:38 PM	#8
Mitch Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Broken Bow, NE Posts: 145	That is the RAW untranscoded video from the A1 shot in 24f DV 16/9. Premiere interprets it as 720x480 23.976 Lower Field First. It was captured in a DV 24p project.

October 8th, 2009, 10:52 PM	#10
Mitch Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Broken Bow, NE Posts: 145	How would I do a reverse 3:2 pulldown removal in Premiere? In the interpret footage dialogue box there is a check mark next to: "Remove 24p DV pulldown". This is the first time I've ever dealt with 24p video, so if you could explain it to me I would appreciate it.

October 10th, 2009, 02:51 PM	#13
Mitch Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Broken Bow, NE Posts: 145	So what is the best way to remove pulldown? Is pulldown removal necessary for both 24f and 30f in SD? Premiere sees the 24f and 30f videos as interlaced and deinterlaces them; will this degrade the image quality? The deinterlacing also uses more system resources, slowing the whole editing process down.

October 10th, 2009, 06:58 PM	#14
Peter Manojlovic Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 769	Mitch, although i don't shoot in 30FPS, i believe the trick in Premiere, is to work on a 29.97fps timeline (interlaced), but upon export, choose the progressive output. Internally, PPro treats it as interlaced.... Although, i'm not working with CS4 currently, take it with a grain of salt...

October 12th, 2009, 04:09 PM	#15
Mitch Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Broken Bow, NE Posts: 145	Peter, won't Premiere deinterlace the video? If so, what is the advantage of shooting in 30f over 60i?