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Canon XH Series HDV Camcorders
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Old November 20th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel Sedlak View Post
I don't agree, because no CCD camcorder can make a beautiful film style motion blur. It is impossible at HD resolution (1920x1080) with a CCD/CMOS technology.
OK...well, as close as you can get with a CCD or CMOS sensor on a video camera. Apologies if I got carried away with comparing this footage to film. Obviously this video camera is not film. The files I get off this camera are 8 bits and compressed. It doesn't respond to light the same way. I get that. But it's closer than exposing the image for the entire duration of the frame which will produce a more smeary effect. I dislike the smeary motion blur, but that's just me. I'd rather have my image look as close to film as I can get it. Following the 180 degree shutter look is only part of the way there, but I'll take it.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 09:37 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Justin Jenkins View Post
There's not terribly much to do honestly. for video to look more like film then shoot 24 fps with a 1/48 shutter speed. People debate the heck out of this idea, but I'm pretty much on board with 24 fps and a 1/48 shutter speed. I guess the game changes when you're not concerned about the film look. It seems like people shooting weddings and stuff like that are more worried about other concerns. But if you're shooting in controlled conditions with directed lighting I can't imagine why anyone would want to shoot at any other settings. Unless of course you have to cut that footage in with other footage shot in non-controlled conditions in a remote location. Then maybe you'd want to match settings between the two.
I guess I was unclear about this, too.

When I mentioned shutter angle, I was not talking about trying to get a film look (for which there is a lot more than just slow shutter speeds.) Personally, I could care less about having a film look for the things that I get paid to do. Mind, I'm not opposed to people trying for film looks. I just do not care about it myself.

We got sidetracked because it was not immediately clear how specific Kevin's question was. Now that Kevin clarified his specific aim, I rather suspect that Kevin is shooting the green-screen studio stuff for web distribution. That is a format where shooting in 30p can make sense.

I only commented about shutter angle when Justin mentioned it because from what little I understand of it, shutter angle is a way of describing a relationship of shutter speed and frame rate. If you understand it, supposedly it helps pick shutter speeds that avoid artifacts such as the strobing that Pavel mentioned as resulting from using some faster shutter speeds when shooting 30p.

Turns out that we do not need to go deeper into this because Kevin doesn't need higher shutter speed for what he is doing.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 12:07 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Jay West View Post
Sure it offers 30i. As explained at the outset, the international standard terminology has been revised. What we used to call 60i is now officially described by international standards as 30i -- that is 30 frames (okay, 29.97 frames) per second interlaced to produce alternating fields which is to say, 60 fields. A lot of folks still say "60i" because it is in the camera manual and because it makes intuitive sense -- 60i sounds like describing 60 interlaced fields. The standards bodies thought that frames were more important as a standard. Hence, 30i and old 60i are the same thing. 30p and 60p were not and are not the same.
I understand where you're coming from and that whole 60i naming convention biz never made sense to me either. It just creates confusion to some. I've heard people who were relatively new say they were shooting in 60fps when in fact it was 60i. But... 60i IS 60 interlaced FIELDS p/s (30 or 29.97 frames)... as 50i IS 50 interlaced FIELDS p/s (25 frames etc) for PAL. In other words fields are separated by 1/60th or 1/50th of a second so it's been commonly called 60i / 50i blah blah :) Frames aren't interlaced and can't be... fields are. Frames have no fields. It was just because you made it sound as if there was a 30i option that you choose to shoot in with the XHA1, which there isn't. 60i, 30f & 24f are the only options (NTSC anyway). Yes... the 30i you see at times now with other cameras is the same as 60i in cameras from several years ago, but calling it something different from what it is with whatever particular camera just for the sake of it will... again... create confusion among some.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 04:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Justin Jenkins View Post
I'd rather have my image look as close to film as I can get it. Following the 180 degree shutter look is only part of the way there, but I'll take it.
Yes, it is right. Everybody can "make look" by using shutter speed, DOF, etc. It's his choice.
There is only one way how to decide - what do you like on TV screen it is ok.

This is what I mean. It depends on the speed of movement on scene, it depends on what look do you like, it depends on the amount of the light - it is a correct answer. If you set a shutter speed to 1/25 (at 1080/25p, right 1080/25F for XH-A1), you minimize a strobe effect - shutter is open all the time, any phase of the movement does not lack (...depends on speed), it maximize amount of light for CCD's.

I can only recommend to compare the look of film vs HD video on the same screen with the same dimension.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 04:16 PM   #20
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This is going to date me, but I remember many film cameras used a smaller angle than 180 degrees, e.g. it was 135 degree on a Bolex H16, the DVX of its day, and this was variable to half - I think the idea was to provide close to 1/60th and 1/120th sec (at 24fps). - can't remember precisely, someone else do the maths. So you don't lose the "film look" by shooting 1/120 sec. As for 30/60i,p, be prepared for fruitless conversations with people insisting their next camera has at least to be 60p ('cause the salesman explained this is 4 times as good as 30i').
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Old November 21st, 2010, 05:53 PM   #21
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Ah, yes, the old Bolex. That dates me, too. As I recall, we had a Bolex H16-M-5 for the film class, and it was a year or two after they first came out. (That's a long time ago for you young folk.) I can remember the model number and have a vivid memory of somebody giving a very detailed explanation of the maths. For the life of me, I cannot remember any details from that lecture. Because I cannot remember the maths, I've just used the rule of thumb about shutter speeds being multiples of frame rates. Kevin's studio shot should go fine with 1/60th as the shutter speed. Using 1/120th would require a somewhat larger aperture which could result in a shallower depth of field, but also would work fine. I think 1/60th easiest to work with indoors for a project like Kevin's.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 05:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bill Busby View Post
I understand where you're coming from and that whole 60i naming convention biz never made sense to me either. It just creates confusion to some. I've heard people who were relatively new say they were shooting in 60fps when in fact it was 60i. But... 60i IS 60 interlaced FIELDS p/s (30 or 29.97 frames)... as 50i IS 50 interlaced FIELDS p/s (25 frames etc) for PAL. In other words fields are separated by 1/60th or 1/50th of a second so it's been commonly called 60i / 50i blah blah :) Frames aren't interlaced and can't be... fields are. Frames have no fields. It was just because you made it sound as if there was a 30i option that you choose to shoot in with the XHA1, which there isn't. 60i, 30f & 24f are the only options (NTSC anyway). Yes... the 30i you see at times now with other cameras is the same as 60i in cameras from several years ago, but calling it something different from what it is with whatever particular camera just for the sake of it will... again... create confusion among some.
Bill:

Confusion is indeed a problem. That's why I explained the nomenclature thing to Kevin in my first post in this thread, and why I tried to remember to say "60i/30i" thereafter. Sorry if you missed that.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 05:17 PM   #23
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Ok, i've done some experimenting over the last few days. It seems that under controlled studio lighting, the camera tends to gravitate towared a shutter of 30 when in the "A" mode. there does not seem to be that much of a difference between a shutter of 30 and sixty with the exception of having to let more light in when using a shutter of 60. Since its a stagnant shot, it appears that a shutter of 30 will work just fine. I will continue to do testing under different lighting scenarios and see what happens.

Last edited by Kevin Lewis; November 22nd, 2010 at 10:42 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 12:35 PM   #24
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a quick comment regarding 180 degree shutter speeds, ESPECIALLY in films. just because the audiences are USED to it does not mean they find it PLEASING.

same with the new TSA regulations; i am sure people will get USED to getting blasted by x-rays and peeped at or fondled, but never find it PLEASING.

i personally HATE 24P, and i dislike the motion blur at 1/48 shutter speed; i have always noticed the 'flicker' in a movie theatre and it always irritated me. even if i shoot 24P, im usually at 1/60. a person walking or turning their head should not look blurry in a movie.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 12:40 PM   #25
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a quick comment regarding 180 degree shutter speeds, ESPECIALLY in films. just because the audiences are USED to it does not mean they find it PLEASING.

same with the new TSA regulations; i am sure people will get USED to getting blasted by x-rays and peeped at or fondled, but never find it PLEASING.

i personally HATE 24P, and i dislike the motion blur at 1/48 shutter speed; i have always noticed the 'flicker' in a movie theatre and it always irritated me. even if i shoot 24P, im usually at 1/60. a person walking or turning their head should not look blurry in a movie.




With 30P or 60i, i usually shoot at 1/60 for wedding/events, and around 1/250 or higher for action shots (motorsports etc)
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Old November 29th, 2010, 10:10 PM   #26
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Update: Thanks to all that gave input. I used a shutter speed of 60 and it worked out great.
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