XH-A1, Apple and 24F

Dave Perry · August 8th, 2006, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

I do find it funny that MPEG Streamclip, Apple's own product, has no problem with the inverse pulldown of Canon's 24F footage.

It's not an Apple product. Here's the web site.

Robert Sanders · August 8th, 2006, 05:57 PM

I stand corrected.

Tony Tibbetts · August 8th, 2006, 07:22 PM

It would be absolutely silly from a financial standpoint to not support those formats. First, they already support the basic HDV format. Second, they have been showing a demo of 720/24p capabilities. Third, what camera on the horizon does has 24p in the AVCHD codec? None. That's how many.

Ya know, I'm not happy about the lack of support regarding these formats either, but FCP will support these formats in the future, it's only a matter of time. When people start buying up those new Canons I bet there will be support for them fairly quickly.

If not, I believe Cineform is working on a version of their codec for Macs.

Apple will have a solution, thinking that they will "skip over" these formats is downright silly.

Bob Zimmerman · August 9th, 2006, 06:21 AM

I agree Tony, it would seem kind of dumb not to put 24F in FCP or FCE. If Apple thought AVC was the last and greatest format, why even waste time with anything else? What are there two AVC-HD camera's announced?

Eric Hansen · August 9th, 2006, 01:22 PM

I'm just going to buy the Firestore FS-C made pretty much for Canon 24F and the XL-H1. It supports 24F and will work perfectly with any system... read up about it here, http://www.focusinfo.com/solutions/catalog.asp?id=171

Eric Hansen
www.ehansenproductions.com

Robert Sanders · August 9th, 2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Tibbetts

Ya know, I'm not happy about the lack of support regarding these formats either, but FCP will support these formats in the future, it's only a matter of time.

The problem is that all us FCP folks have been saying the same thing for almost EIGHT MONTHS NOW.

Robert Sanders · August 9th, 2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Tibbetts

If not, I believe Cineform is working on a version of their codec for Macs.

David Newman of Cineform has said that Quicktime support for Cineform will available this fall. BUT there will not be any FCP support in the foreseeable future.

I'm assuming it's because they're not getting much cooperation from Apple.

Tony Tibbetts · August 9th, 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman

What are there two AVC-HD camera's announced?

Yeah, but none that will do 24p, which was my point. It's 24p support we're talking about here correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

David Newman of Cineform has said that Quicktime support for Cineform will available this fall. BUT there will not be any FCP support in the foreseeable future.

I'm assuming it's because they're not getting much cooperation from Apple.

Apple is probably just holding out for FCP6, which is right around the corner. Also, what would be the point of making a Cineform codec for the mac if you can't edit it in the mac's native NLE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Hansen

I'm just going to buy the Firestore FS-C made pretty much for Canon 24F and the XL-H1. It supports 24F and will work perfectly with any system... read up about it here, http://www.focusinfo.com/solutions/catalog.asp?id=171

Eric Hansen
www.ehansenproductions.com

I don't believe thats true. Maybe I'm not reading something right, it does have the Canon logo plastered on the site, but here is the exact phrasing:

Quote:

"When in DV mode, files are recorded to disk as RawDV, AVI Type 1, AVI Type 2, AVI Type 2 24p, Matrox AVI, Canopus AVI, QuickTime, QuickTime 24p, Avid OMF, or Pinnacle AVI, or to 1080i MPEG-2 transport streams (.m2t) when in HD mode."

Where does it say it will support 24f? The closest option was Quicktime 24p, but it that set at DV resolution? The only other option is 1080i mpeg2 stream. Really it would be no different than streaming the footage from the original HDV tapes. It looks to me that it just does a 1080i firewire transfer. The problem is getting that stream into an 24p format that you can edit on FCP.

Eric Hansen · August 9th, 2006, 10:21 PM

Tony, I may be wrong as well but I talked to a Canon dealer who did say that it will support the format, so we ordered one and should be in by Monday, We'll run some tests and let you know how it goes....

Eric Hansen

Tony Tibbetts · August 10th, 2006, 12:14 AM

It does support 1080i mpeg-2 stream which 24f (and 30f for that matter) comes in. So yes it does support the 1080i stream coming from the firewire of the camera. The firestore does not convert it to a progressive HDV format, or any progressive HD format.

Technically FCP and the Apple Intermediate HDV Codec already supports 1080i. If you want to edit your 24f footage in 60i then FCP is already good to go. When you record 24f on tape it is in a 60i stream. The firestore is essentially just equivalent to a really long tape. The trick is being able to extract the progressive frames and edit in a 24p timeline. The firestore won't convert it to 24p for you.

Steve Benner · August 10th, 2006, 09:07 AM

Here are some facts regarding Canon and JVC HD 24P:

-Currently the best workaround for FCP is using the MPEG Streamclip process as told about above.

-The next release of FCP will have support for the frame rates, but no one knows when that will be...Apple just released the Mac Pro and everyone was expecting it to be acompanied by an update to Final Cut Studio. That didn't happen.

-Canopus is the only editing software that can directly injest both the Canon and JVC frame rates Natively.

-FCE CANNOT edit 24 Frames...go with FCP.

-The Firestores record the 24 frame material in a 60i (Canon) or 60p (JVC) frame rate. Repeat flags are inbedded. The Firestore cannot remove the pulldown yet. On a side note, Focus is releasing a HDV.Mov wrapper for JVC 30P. They said they will persue this for 24P once FCP releases the update. I assume they will also do this for the Canon.

Bill Pryor · August 10th, 2006, 01:18 PM

You think Apple's lack of support on this issue is strange--I attended the Apple/Sony XDCAM HD seminar last week in Chicago. Apple is touring the U.S. with Sony promoting their interactivity...BUT...FCP will not handle XDCAM HD at 35mbs yet, and you can not edit the XDCAM HD proxy files yet.

One would think they would get FCP up to speed before doing the tour.

Tony Tibbetts · August 10th, 2006, 04:53 PM

I would be willing to bet money that Canon 24f, JVC 24p, Sony's XDCAM will all be supported by FCP when the new version comes out. Possibly AVCHD will be supported also.

Evan C. King · August 10th, 2006, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

The problem is that all us FCP folks have been saying the same thing for almost EIGHT MONTHS NOW.

Yeah but now their are 3x as many 24f camcorders, they essentially have no choice but to support it because these cameras will obviously sell.

If there's a user base they have to give them what they want or other companies will.

Heath McKnight · August 10th, 2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

Apple's gonna throw it's support behind AVC-HD and implement 24p support there. They're gonna view HDV in general as a stop-gap format and therefore I doubt they'll support Canon's or JVC's flavors.

I disagree...AVCHD is a consumer format, so I think we'll see JVC and Canon 24p/f support soon. I'm frustrated, too, but it'll come. It took 2 years for native and even DI support in Apple (and not a third party version, though Lumiere HD is nice).

heath

August 8th, 2006, 05:57 PM	#17
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	I stand corrected. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

August 10th, 2006, 12:14 AM	#25
Tony Tibbetts Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 385	It does support 1080i mpeg-2 stream which 24f (and 30f for that matter) comes in. So yes it does support the 1080i stream coming from the firewire of the camera. The firestore does not convert it to a progressive HDV format, or any progressive HD format. Technically FCP and the Apple Intermediate HDV Codec already supports 1080i. If you want to edit your 24f footage in 60i then FCP is already good to go. When you record 24f on tape it is in a 60i stream. The firestore is essentially just equivalent to a really long tape. The trick is being able to extract the progressive frames and edit in a 24p timeline. The firestore won't convert it to 24p for you. Last edited by Tony Tibbetts; August 10th, 2006 at 12:45 AM.

August 8th, 2006, 07:22 PM	#18
Tony Tibbetts Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 385	It would be absolutely silly from a financial standpoint to not support those formats. First, they already support the basic HDV format. Second, they have been showing a demo of 720/24p capabilities. Third, what camera on the horizon does has 24p in the AVCHD codec? None. That's how many. Ya know, I'm not happy about the lack of support regarding these formats either, but FCP will support these formats in the future, it's only a matter of time. When people start buying up those new Canons I bet there will be support for them fairly quickly. If not, I believe Cineform is working on a version of their codec for Macs. Apple will have a solution, thinking that they will "skip over" these formats is downright silly.

August 9th, 2006, 06:21 AM	#19
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	I agree Tony, it would seem kind of dumb not to put 24F in FCP or FCE. If Apple thought AVC was the last and greatest format, why even waste time with anything else? What are there two AVC-HD camera's announced?

August 9th, 2006, 01:22 PM	#20
Eric Hansen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Eagle Mountain, Utah Posts: 97	I'm just going to buy the Firestore FS-C made pretty much for Canon 24F and the XL-H1. It supports 24F and will work perfectly with any system... read up about it here, http://www.focusinfo.com/solutions/catalog.asp?id=171 Eric Hansen www.ehansenproductions.com

August 9th, 2006, 10:21 PM	#24
Eric Hansen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Eagle Mountain, Utah Posts: 97	Tony, I may be wrong as well but I talked to a Canon dealer who did say that it will support the format, so we ordered one and should be in by Monday, We'll run some tests and let you know how it goes.... Eric Hansen

August 10th, 2006, 09:07 AM	#26
Steve Benner Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 590	Here are some facts regarding Canon and JVC HD 24P: -Currently the best workaround for FCP is using the MPEG Streamclip process as told about above. -The next release of FCP will have support for the frame rates, but no one knows when that will be...Apple just released the Mac Pro and everyone was expecting it to be acompanied by an update to Final Cut Studio. That didn't happen. -Canopus is the only editing software that can directly injest both the Canon and JVC frame rates Natively. -FCE CANNOT edit 24 Frames...go with FCP. -The Firestores record the 24 frame material in a 60i (Canon) or 60p (JVC) frame rate. Repeat flags are inbedded. The Firestore cannot remove the pulldown yet. On a side note, Focus is releasing a HDV.Mov wrapper for JVC 30P. They said they will persue this for 24P once FCP releases the update. I assume they will also do this for the Canon.

August 10th, 2006, 01:18 PM	#27
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	You think Apple's lack of support on this issue is strange--I attended the Apple/Sony XDCAM HD seminar last week in Chicago. Apple is touring the U.S. with Sony promoting their interactivity...BUT...FCP will not handle XDCAM HD at 35mbs yet, and you can not edit the XDCAM HD proxy files yet. One would think they would get FCP up to speed before doing the tour.

August 10th, 2006, 04:53 PM	#28
Tony Tibbetts Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 385	I would be willing to bet money that Canon 24f, JVC 24p, Sony's XDCAM will all be supported by FCP when the new version comes out. Possibly AVCHD will be supported also.