My number one fear about the XH G1/A1 at DVinfo.net

Tyson Persall · August 15th, 2006, 01:17 AM

I own a DVX100 and an XL2. I really like both cameras and use them both. Both have strenghs and weaknesses. But the number one thing I dont like about the XL2 is the frame judder associated with shooting a 24p pan shot.
If you have the camera in 24p mode and do a normal pan by - it studders across the screen. Some say its suposed to look like this cause film looks like this (and in some cases it does) but in my sujective view I dont like it. The DVX100 does not have this issue. Pan shots in 24p have the kind of motion rendering I like.
Anyway, Im considering an XH A1 but my biggest fear is that it will have the same frame judder that the XL2 has -when I want something like the DVX in high definition.

Chris Hurd · August 15th, 2006, 01:22 AM

Interesting, because the DVX100 and the XL2 share the *exact same* 24p implementation.

There should be some downloadable 24F clips around the time the XH cameras start shipping.

Tony Tibbetts · August 15th, 2006, 01:52 AM

I own both. Panning at the same speeds they look about the same to me. Subjectively...ehh...sure anything can be argued subjectively. Chris is right it is the same exact implementation. Factually speaking though it isn't possible.

You should take a look at XL-H1 clips. That will give you a good indication of what it will look like. The DVX and XL2 are progressive chip cameras whereas the XH-A1 is not.

Pete Bauer · August 15th, 2006, 07:19 AM

The two most likely reasons for "judder" in 24p or 24F are panning too fast when one is used to 60i, and leaving the image stabilization on when pan/tilting on a tripod. I've used both the XL2 and the XL H1. Pan and tilt behave just as one would expect at a given frame rate in both cameras.

BTW, this has been beaten to death, but since it was mentioned again...it doesn't matter that the sensor in the XL H1 and new XH cameras is an interlaced CCD block. We don't have footage yet for the XH cameras, but the H1 output is true 24fps that has slightly less image detail than the same camera's 60i, and more image detail than any other 24fps solution under $20k currently available. So as has been said many times, the chatter about the chip is just noise.

Thomas Smet · August 15th, 2006, 07:46 AM

Is it possible that you are using 24p in one camera and 24p A in the other camera? This would make each one look different. If the XL2 was shooting 24pA then yes it would be jerky compared to normal 24P. If your final output is some form of 24P the 24p A is actually the better form to use once you pull out the true 24p frames.

Chris Hurd · August 15th, 2006, 08:21 AM

Shutter speed would make a big difference too. The XL2 defaults to 1/48th.

Bill Pryor · August 15th, 2006, 10:28 AM

I just did a 3-camera music video shoot with 3 XL2s, in 24p, 1/48 shutter. No judder. Looks great, in fact, better than I expected under the low light conditions. When you're shooting in 24p, the viewfinder does look jumpy, but that is not in the footage.

Tyson Persall · August 15th, 2006, 02:38 PM

I think it must be the differnce in the XL2s lens from the DVX lens. I think Ive been using the image stabalizer on the XL2 and should just turn it off all the time when shooting 24p. However, i use the OIS image stablizer on the DVX and dont get the same frame judder. Maybe I need to upload some video on here for you guys to look at.

Bill Pryor · August 15th, 2006, 03:22 PM

Well, I shot with the stabilizer (when doing hand held stuff) on and no problem. Could be something wrong with your camera.

Ash Greyson · August 16th, 2006, 09:29 AM

The XL2 has better OIS and should be off unless you are on the long end of the lens. The motion rendering, as noted, is exactly the same on both cameras.

ash =o)

Tyson Persall · August 16th, 2006, 11:53 AM

Are you saying you shoot with the OIS OFF all the time -unless you are shooting zoomed far in?

Also, I found this quote about the Canon XL-H1 off: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68020

"FEELING A LITTLE SHAKY
Don't, I repeat, do not use the optical image stablizer (OIS) when the camera is mounted on something steady (bag or tripod). OIS introduces undesireable motion stuttering. Only use this when you have to." ---

"MY FAST PANS LOOK LIKE BAD.
If you are going to be recording in 24F mode, be very careful to avoid fast pans and tilts. You will get a stuttering motion that is very undesirable. This is a product of using 24 fps recording. The same problem is encountered by motion picture cameras. There are formulas on the Web about how fast you can go but I just know instinctively at this stage not to whip the camera around from north to south.

Also, I don't care what anyone else says because I have seen this for myself, 24p video stutters more than telecined film. I have watched hundreds of films and I can see the motion is a little smoother than on a 24p video camera. The point is that it is all the more critical to avoid fast movement unless it is de-emphasized with a relatively slow moving object or person in the foreground to take the audienceï¿½s focus off the fast, stuttering part of your scene."

Ash Greyson · August 16th, 2006, 09:11 PM

Those quotes are related to 24P, not just the XLH, I could dig the exact same comments up about every 24P cam. Yes, I never use OIS unless I am over 8X zoom...

ash =o)

Tony Tibbetts · August 16th, 2006, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyson Persall

Also, I don't care what anyone else says because I have seen this for myself, 24p video stutters more than telecined film.

Okay, but what does that have to do with your perceived stutter/judder difference between the DVX and XL2? The process of telecine film transfer is different than a recording from a 24p DV camcorder. The DVX and XL2 are progressive chip cameras using the exact same pull down methods to achieve 24p.

With the same settings the cameras frame rate stutter/judder will look the same.

Yasser Kassana · August 17th, 2006, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyson Persall

"FEELING A LITTLE SHAKY
Don't, I repeat, do not use the optical image stablizer (OIS) when the camera is mounted on something steady (bag or tripod). OIS introduces undesireable motion stuttering. Only use this when you have to." ---

I think you question may have been answered above.

Ali Husain · August 19th, 2006, 01:36 AM

don't use OIS for ANYTHING but a static shot that must be handheld. if you move the camera with OIS on then the OIS mechanism will track the motion till it reaches the edge of its travel then it'll snap back, over and over again and your result will be hideous.

you're not going to smooth out a moving camera this way; you have to use an intertial stabilizer/steadicam type thing for that (with OIS off).

August 15th, 2006, 01:17 AM	#1
Tyson Persall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: North Hollywood, Atlanta Posts: 437	My number one fear about the XH G1/A1 I own a DVX100 and an XL2. I really like both cameras and use them both. Both have strenghs and weaknesses. But the number one thing I dont like about the XL2 is the frame judder associated with shooting a 24p pan shot. If you have the camera in 24p mode and do a normal pan by - it studders across the screen. Some say its suposed to look like this cause film looks like this (and in some cases it does) but in my sujective view I dont like it. The DVX100 does not have this issue. Pan shots in 24p have the kind of motion rendering I like. Anyway, Im considering an XH A1 but my biggest fear is that it will have the same frame judder that the XL2 has -when I want something like the DVX in high definition. __________________ Tyson X

August 15th, 2006, 01:22 AM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Interesting, because the DVX100 and the XL2 share the exact same 24p implementation. There should be some downloadable 24F clips around the time the XH cameras start shipping. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 15th, 2006, 07:19 AM	#4
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	The two most likely reasons for "judder" in 24p or 24F are panning too fast when one is used to 60i, and leaving the image stabilization on when pan/tilting on a tripod. I've used both the XL2 and the XL H1. Pan and tilt behave just as one would expect at a given frame rate in both cameras. BTW, this has been beaten to death, but since it was mentioned again...it doesn't matter that the sensor in the XL H1 and new XH cameras is an interlaced CCD block. We don't have footage yet for the XH cameras, but the H1 output is true 24fps that has slightly less image detail than the same camera's 60i, and more image detail than any other 24fps solution under $20k currently available. So as has been said many times, the chatter about the chip is just noise. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

August 15th, 2006, 08:21 AM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Shutter speed would make a big difference too. The XL2 defaults to 1/48th. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 15th, 2006, 02:38 PM	#8
Tyson Persall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: North Hollywood, Atlanta Posts: 437	I think it must be the differnce in the XL2s lens from the DVX lens. I think Ive been using the image stabalizer on the XL2 and should just turn it off all the time when shooting 24p. However, i use the OIS image stablizer on the DVX and dont get the same frame judder. Maybe I need to upload some video on here for you guys to look at. __________________ Tyson X

August 15th, 2006, 01:52 AM	#3
Tony Tibbetts Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 385	I own both. Panning at the same speeds they look about the same to me. Subjectively...ehh...sure anything can be argued subjectively. Chris is right it is the same exact implementation. Factually speaking though it isn't possible. You should take a look at XL-H1 clips. That will give you a good indication of what it will look like. The DVX and XL2 are progressive chip cameras whereas the XH-A1 is not.

August 15th, 2006, 07:46 AM	#5
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Is it possible that you are using 24p in one camera and 24p A in the other camera? This would make each one look different. If the XL2 was shooting 24pA then yes it would be jerky compared to normal 24P. If your final output is some form of 24P the 24p A is actually the better form to use once you pull out the true 24p frames.

August 15th, 2006, 10:28 AM	#7
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I just did a 3-camera music video shoot with 3 XL2s, in 24p, 1/48 shutter. No judder. Looks great, in fact, better than I expected under the low light conditions. When you're shooting in 24p, the viewfinder does look jumpy, but that is not in the footage.

August 15th, 2006, 03:22 PM	#9
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Well, I shot with the stabilizer (when doing hand held stuff) on and no problem. Could be something wrong with your camera.

August 16th, 2006, 09:29 AM	#10
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	The XL2 has better OIS and should be off unless you are on the long end of the lens. The motion rendering, as noted, is exactly the same on both cameras. ash =o)

August 16th, 2006, 11:53 AM	#11
Tyson Persall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: North Hollywood, Atlanta Posts: 437	Are you saying you shoot with the OIS OFF all the time -unless you are shooting zoomed far in? Also, I found this quote about the Canon XL-H1 off: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68020 "FEELING A LITTLE SHAKY Don't, I repeat, do not use the optical image stablizer (OIS) when the camera is mounted on something steady (bag or tripod). OIS introduces undesireable motion stuttering. Only use this when you have to." --- "MY FAST PANS LOOK LIKE BAD. If you are going to be recording in 24F mode, be very careful to avoid fast pans and tilts. You will get a stuttering motion that is very undesirable. This is a product of using 24 fps recording. The same problem is encountered by motion picture cameras. There are formulas on the Web about how fast you can go but I just know instinctively at this stage not to whip the camera around from north to south. Also, I don't care what anyone else says because I have seen this for myself, 24p video stutters more than telecined film. I have watched hundreds of films and I can see the motion is a little smoother than on a 24p video camera. The point is that it is all the more critical to avoid fast movement unless it is de-emphasized with a relatively slow moving object or person in the foreground to take the audienceï¿½s focus off the fast, stuttering part of your scene." __________________ Tyson X

August 16th, 2006, 09:11 PM	#12
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Those quotes are related to 24P, not just the XLH, I could dig the exact same comments up about every 24P cam. Yes, I never use OIS unless I am over 8X zoom... ash =o)

August 19th, 2006, 01:36 AM	#15
Ali Husain Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 141	don't use OIS for ANYTHING but a static shot that must be handheld. if you move the camera with OIS on then the OIS mechanism will track the motion till it reaches the edge of its travel then it'll snap back, over and over again and your result will be hideous. you're not going to smooth out a moving camera this way; you have to use an intertial stabilizer/steadicam type thing for that (with OIS off).