Audio "normal" vs. "voice"? at DVinfo.net

Michael Mann · December 22nd, 2006, 08:54 AM

Does anyone know the difference between the audio settings "Normal" and "Voice"? I was hoping to find a hided audio limiter here, but clipping does occur even in "voice" position.

Greg Boston · December 22nd, 2006, 09:02 AM

I'm going to take a stab and guess that 'voice' employs a band-pass filter centered around the primary voice frequencies while normal removes any filtering. The 'voice' mode would be helpful in this case to isolate dialog from distracting background audio, making such dialog cut through the mix.

-gb-

Michael Mann · December 22nd, 2006, 09:19 AM

Thanks! Chris & Greg, you don't happen to know about an audio limiter? XLR-inputs without switchable limiter? I can't believe it is missing.

Bill Pryor · December 22nd, 2006, 10:17 AM

I've been shooting (mostly with Betacam and DVCAM 2/3" chip cameras) for longer than I care to remember and I don't think I've ever run across an audio limiter, except on a mixer. If you record in auto (which I've never done) the automatic function serves as a limiter, obviously. But I don't recall ever seeing an audio limiter switch, like mixers have, on any camera I've used.

Alex Leith · December 22nd, 2006, 10:28 AM

Some camcorders in this price range (Z1/FX1?) come with a built-in limiter / soft-clip in manual mode...

But I'm guessing not the A1?

Bill Pryor · December 22nd, 2006, 10:44 AM

I'm sort of new to the "prosumer" camera thing and I didn't know any of them had a limiter. Maybe it's a menu function? I'll check the manual and see.

Bill Pryor · December 22nd, 2006, 10:51 AM

Nothing in the manual that I can find about a limiter, so it must not have one.

What I've always done on other cameras when not using a mixer and shooting things that might blow out the audio is use an XLR Y-adapter, and I set channel 1 tone at -20, and then take channel 2 down about another 5-10 db. So if something on channel 1 peaks out above around a -11 or so, channel 2 should cover me.

Michael Mann · December 22nd, 2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Leith

Some camcorders in this price range (Z1/FX1?) come with a built-in limiter / soft-clip in manual mode

That's right! And I used it all the time.

Canon provides us with top audio features that are essential to use high quality microphones on the A1 WITHOUT needing a mixer: professional XLR inputs, separate channel manual gain control, phantom powering, 20dB att - but it leaves out a limiter? Sorry, but that does not make sense at all, does it?

Alex Leith · December 22nd, 2006, 10:58 AM

Yes, I'd never come across a full size camera with a built-in limiter, but I think with the one-man (often less trained) operation of these smaller cameras some manufacturers have been kind enough to give us at very-least a soft-clip.

The A1 doesn't appear to have a soft-clip (I've just checked) although the "auto" setting does suspiciously well at managing audio levels without sounding bad at all...

I'm pretty impressed by the audio on this camera. I feel a bit unsettled that I'm considering using the built in mics for ambient sound... it goes against everything I've ever learned! But... they sound... okay...

Michael Mann · December 22nd, 2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

What I've always done on other cameras when not using a mixer and shooting things that might blow out the audio is use an XLR Y-adapter, and I set channel 1 tone at -20, and then take channel 2 down about another 5-10 db. So if something on channel 1 peaks out above around a -11 or so, channel 2 should cover me.

Good idea, Bill. I sure would do the same, but I am always recording MS-Stereo.
I hope, that there IS a kind of "soft clipping" when recording in manual mode, even if it is not mentioned in the manual.

Alex Leith · December 22nd, 2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Mann

I hope, that there IS a kind of "soft clipping" when recording in manual mode, even if it is not mentioned in the manual.

I couldn't find it... but I hope someone can? Perhaps it's a firmware upgrade :-P

Michael Mann · December 22nd, 2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Leith

Perhaps it's a firmware upgrade :-P

Alex, I didn't think of such a solution before. They could "fix" it via a firmware upgrade, could they? I mean - could a limiting/soft clipping feature be added only by software?

Alex Leith · December 22nd, 2006, 11:41 AM

I presume it could be added by software, but that really depends on how Canon have setup / programmed this camcorder.

Does anyone know if the H1 has a soft-clip?

Raymond Toussaint · December 22nd, 2006, 11:42 AM

Maybe they can, but I don't think they will. If you can't organize the tresshold a limiter sounds bad. They all do, they clip the sound off/on and you have a 'breathing' effect.

Try to treat yourself (and your audio) by working with a small portable audiomixer that feeds the phantom mics too, like the sounddevices Premix or sortalike. The preamp quality is much better and the monitoring is perfect. It's another 500$ but in the end, this is a working solution, go line in in the A1.

Alex Leith · December 22nd, 2006, 03:40 PM

Of course you're right Raymond. The soft-clip / limiter is more of a "belt-and-braces" ("belt-and-suspenders") solution - It won't make your audio sound good if you haven't got the levels right, but it can save it if you hit and unexpectedly loud transient...

Like somebody shouting "Stop this wedding!" right in the middle of the service.

:-D

December 22nd, 2006, 08:54 AM	#1
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Audio "normal" vs. "voice"? Does anyone know the difference between the audio settings "Normal" and "Voice"? I was hoping to find a hided audio limiter here, but clipping does occur even in "voice" position. __________________ Michael

December 22nd, 2006, 09:19 AM	#3
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Thanks! Chris & Greg, you don't happen to know about an audio limiter? XLR-inputs without switchable limiter? I can't believe it is missing. __________________ Michael

December 22nd, 2006, 10:28 AM	#5
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Some camcorders in this price range (Z1/FX1?) come with a built-in limiter / soft-clip in manual mode... But I'm guessing not the A1? __________________ Alex

December 22nd, 2006, 10:58 AM	#9
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Yes, I'd never come across a full size camera with a built-in limiter, but I think with the one-man (often less trained) operation of these smaller cameras some manufacturers have been kind enough to give us at very-least a soft-clip. The A1 doesn't appear to have a soft-clip (I've just checked) although the "auto" setting does suspiciously well at managing audio levels without sounding bad at all... I'm pretty impressed by the audio on this camera. I feel a bit unsettled that I'm considering using the built in mics for ambient sound... it goes against everything I've ever learned! But... they sound... okay... __________________ Alex

December 22nd, 2006, 11:41 AM	#13
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	I presume it could be added by software, but that really depends on how Canon have setup / programmed this camcorder. Does anyone know if the H1 has a soft-clip? __________________ Alex

December 22nd, 2006, 09:02 AM	#2
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	I'm going to take a stab and guess that 'voice' employs a band-pass filter centered around the primary voice frequencies while normal removes any filtering. The 'voice' mode would be helpful in this case to isolate dialog from distracting background audio, making such dialog cut through the mix. -gb-

December 22nd, 2006, 10:17 AM	#4
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I've been shooting (mostly with Betacam and DVCAM 2/3" chip cameras) for longer than I care to remember and I don't think I've ever run across an audio limiter, except on a mixer. If you record in auto (which I've never done) the automatic function serves as a limiter, obviously. But I don't recall ever seeing an audio limiter switch, like mixers have, on any camera I've used.

December 22nd, 2006, 10:44 AM	#6
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I'm sort of new to the "prosumer" camera thing and I didn't know any of them had a limiter. Maybe it's a menu function? I'll check the manual and see.

December 22nd, 2006, 10:51 AM	#7
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Nothing in the manual that I can find about a limiter, so it must not have one. What I've always done on other cameras when not using a mixer and shooting things that might blow out the audio is use an XLR Y-adapter, and I set channel 1 tone at -20, and then take channel 2 down about another 5-10 db. So if something on channel 1 peaks out above around a -11 or so, channel 2 should cover me.

December 22nd, 2006, 11:42 AM	#14
Raymond Toussaint Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 173	Maybe they can, but I don't think they will. If you can't organize the tresshold a limiter sounds bad. They all do, they clip the sound off/on and you have a 'breathing' effect. Try to treat yourself (and your audio) by working with a small portable audiomixer that feeds the phantom mics too, like the sounddevices Premix or sortalike. The preamp quality is much better and the monitoring is perfect. It's another 500$ but in the end, this is a working solution, go line in in the A1.

December 22nd, 2006, 03:40 PM	#15
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Of course you're right Raymond. The soft-clip / limiter is more of a "belt-and-braces" ("belt-and-suspenders") solution - It won't make your audio sound good if you haven't got the levels right, but it can save it if you hit and unexpectedly loud transient... Like somebody shouting "Stop this wedding!" right in the middle of the service. :-D __________________ Alex