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Canon XH Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XH G1S / G1 (with SDI), Canon XH A1S / A1 (without SDI).


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Old January 17th, 2007, 09:32 AM   #91
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Holly, I'm not talking about the HDV signal recorded via firewire, which is recorded as 24 frames progressive as you say.

I'm referring to the HD video that is encoded to 60i at the component (and composite) analog outputs, which has (non-advanced only) pulldown added. It would be great to have the option of using advanced pulldown at the analog component output for perfect pulldown removal, to get back to 24 frame progressive without recording HDV (such as when recording component analog direct to computer, for greenscreen work).

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Old January 17th, 2007, 09:46 AM   #92
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Jamie, all "encoding" is done in camera when shooting. Firewire out is just identical digital data... all just zeros & ones. Regarding the analog out, be it component or composite, isn't encoded either. It uses D/A conversion.

Maybe that's what you meant. I was just making some clarification.

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Last edited by Bill Busby; January 17th, 2007 at 12:08 PM.
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Old January 17th, 2007, 02:28 PM   #93
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Think it's time to get this poll up!
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Old January 19th, 2007, 06:30 PM   #94
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Bill, thanks for your input, but that's an entirely different subject which does not relate at all to what I'm describing.

For an overview of the issue, Google "advanced pulldown."

When you record in 24f mode, the Canon A1 doesn't need to do pulldown, either advanced 2-3-3-2 pulldown or normal 2-3 pulldown, when recording to HDV. This is because it is smart enough to only record the 24 progressive frames per second to tape.

The Canon A1 also doesn't need to do pulldown when sending the HDV signal to your computer over Firewire because, again, it's already a 24 frame per second stream.

HOWEVER: When you record video from any of the analog ports on the A1 while running the A1 as a live camera, IOW, NOT recording to HDV tape, there is a limitation. The signal coming from the analog ports is ALWAYS 60i.

The Canon will embed the 24f stream into the 60i stream by creating extra frames/fields. This is called "pulldown."

Advanced 2-3-3-2 pulldown is easy to process in a way that leaves only the original 24 progressive frames per second. Advanced pulldown removal is widely supported. For example Final Cut Pro can remove it easily and non-destructively.

Regular 2-3 pulldown is not so easy to process because periodic frames get split as fields into a single interlaced frame.

So, if you are shooting HDV to tape, no problem. However if you want to shoot pre-HDV compression for green screen useage, directly to your computer via the component outputs, and you want to use 24f, you now have a bigger problem getting your 24 progressive frames back out of that 60i stream. If you are compressing in the computer as you shoot, it's also problematic to compress that periodically combined frame represenation.

BTW, if you shoot SD, the A1 DOES give you the choice of advanced pulldown from the analog outputs. But oddly, it's not available if you shoot HD. (BTW, the same limitation exists with the digital outputs on the G1 and H1.)

So, for the A1, my request is to have the option of advanced pulldown from the component output.

This will be handy when shooting HD direct to the computer via the component output (NOT using HDV, NOT using Firewire).

An example of when you might want to avoid HDV compression and use the analog component out while shooting is when doing green screen compositing work. HDV compression stomps on the color resolution, making clean keys harder to create. Going direct out of the component ports will give you higher color resolution, entirely avoiding HDV compression when shooting (not when playing back HDV tapes, of course).

In a nutshell: It would be handy to be able to capture from the component output when shooting, using advanced pulldown for easy recovery of the 24f stream.

Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com

Last edited by Jamie Krutz; January 20th, 2007 at 12:50 PM.
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Old January 20th, 2007, 02:14 PM   #95
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I haven't forgotten about this thread... just majorly distracted, as usual. The poll can go up any time. I had to revise the part of the forum software that manages polls to allow for voting for a limited number of multiple choice options, but that's done now. However, I need some clarification on some of these options because I'm having difficulty understanding what they're asking for. So here's the list broken into two parts... the first half are the requests which I can understand. The second part are those requests on which I'm seeking some better description.

First batch -- I've added Holly's request to disable the color bars switch, and added two of my own, one of which is the option to display shutter information as a value of degrees instead of time (the Sony HVR-V1U has this display option). My other wish list item is the option to manually set the top limit of AGC (shooter decides the max AGC value, such as +12db for example).

Quote:
- OIS switch via Custom Key
- Ext. vs. Int. Mic switch via Custom Key
- 1/50th default shutter speed in 25F
- Soft clipping / limiter in manual audio
- Display Peaking and Zebra at same time
- EVF Magnification while recording
- Flip image (but not display info) in LCD & EVF
- Record flipped image to tape
- Additional shutter speeds between 1/25 and 1/50 (1/33 and/or 1/40)
- Remaining battery time in real minutes
- Custom Function for Long Push of "end play" button
- option to disable AF during zoom
- additional digital zoom in SD
- display CP Name (not number) on screen
- option to disable Color Bars switch
- display shutter value in degrees (not time)
- manually set maximum AGC value
Second batch -- please aid my confusion on some of these if you will:

Quote:
- Remember the previous selected shutter speed
In the recent history of Canon 3CCD camcorders, this has always been available in standby mode, but not after a complete power down. Do other camcorders offer this?

Quote:
- Exp. Lock is Push AE in Manual mode
Already available... in Tv mode, press Exp. Lock once to shoot in full manual; press Exp. Lock again for AE. In other words, all you have to do in order to shoot in full manual with Push AE from the Exp. Lock button, is to use the Tv program mode instead of the M program mode... there is no difference between the two modes (Manual vs. Tv with Exp. Lock), except the availability of Push AE.

Quote:
- Exposure override via iris ring in Tv mode
Already available via the Exp. Lock button. When shooting in Tv mode, press the Exp. Lock button once and the iris ring becomes fully active. Or is the intention to have the iris ring allow for only a couple of stops of adjustment above or below AE (as found on the AE dial on the XL series)?

Quote:
- CP select via shutter scroll wheel
How would you switch for this function when shooting? Because you'll need it for shutter speed control in Tv or M modes plus A or Av modes with Exp. Lock. Would you switch for it by pressing the CP on/off button? Would it make more sense to use the menu scroller for this purpose? Or perhaps the zoom speed select dial?

Quote:
- Exp. Lock disables AGC
How would you switch for this function?

Quote:
- Improvements of NR1, NR2
Improve in what ways, specifically?

Quote:
- Intermediate steps in gain
Which intermediate steps specifically... +9db and +15db?

Quote:
- Improvement of the "night" mode
Improve in what way specifically?

Quote:
- Conversion 50i to 25f (playback)
I don't get it... what other camcorder does this, and if you're going to convert 50i to 25f, why not just shoot 25f in the first place?

Quote:
- White Balance settings below 2800 K
Down to what value specifically? What's the lowest any other camera goes to?

Quote:
- Photo Buttons usable as Custom Preset buttons
Do you want the photo buttons to be mapped as Custom Preset on/off buttons, or as additional Custom Key buttons? Or, for the greatest flexibility, would you want these buttons mappable as either way, as CP on/off or as additional Custom Keys, your choice?

Quote:
- option to allocate AWB switch as OIS Switch or XLR mic / onboard mic switch
Why not use Custom Keys for these purpose, as already suggested?

Quote:
- ability to fine tune the LCD and CRT viewfinder to match colors in menu settings
Both displays are tunable within the Displays Setup menu. Or is this request asking for a greater range and/or finer degree of adjustment?

Thanks in advance for any input,
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Old January 20th, 2007, 02:27 PM   #96
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Chris, thanks for your effort so far and for sorting out what has to be more precise. This is essential if we want to be heard by Canon. Here are my suggestions:

(1) Remember the previous selected shutter speed
I don't know if any other camcorders offer this but it sure would be a useful feature and therefore should be on our list. Maybe we modify the wish as follows:

- Option to remember the previous selected shutter speed even after a complete power down


(2) Option to disable AF during zoom
I suggest to add the following so that the reason for this wish becomes clearer:

- Option to disable AF during zoom to prevent possible focus pulsing problems when zooming in AF
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Last edited by Michael Mann; January 20th, 2007 at 03:32 PM.
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Old January 20th, 2007, 03:31 PM   #97
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I've just discovered something vaguely interesting about the shutter speed (certainly in 25F on a A1E)

In M, the camera DOES remember the shutter speed when I go to standby or powerdown or remove the battery.

In Tv the shutter speed defaults to 25... but only if I'm switching to it from full auto mode. If I switch to it from the other direction it remembers the previous setting...

I think that one might be a bug!
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Old January 20th, 2007, 03:35 PM   #98
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That's interesting, Alex, I have to try this out. Thanks.
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Old January 20th, 2007, 03:57 PM   #99
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Maybe it's just me... but I don't understand the disabling of the color bar switch. Most pro cams I've used have basically 3 switches: Gain, Output (cam & bars) & White Balance. If it's a matter of accidentally switching to colorbars while shooting, then that's just user error & it's the user who should become accustomed to where these 3 switches are located.

Holly mentioned threads ago she would like this so she "can permanently remove the tape" which never made sense to me & I didn't get a reply when asked about it.

Not that it matters... just my 2 cents :)

Bill
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Old January 20th, 2007, 04:00 PM   #100
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peaking colour/intensity

Compared to the Sony V1, the peaking is definitely less functional. Let me propose one more item to the wishlist: customizable colour and intensity level of peaking (ironically, when you change to black&white for easier focusing, the peaking gets even less distinctive - should be red or yellow!) So, the list now would be:

- customizable color and intensity of peaking
- OIS mappable to custom key
- XLR/ camera mics mappable to custom key
- 1/50th default shutter speed in 25F
- Remember the previous selected shutter speed
- Exposure lock acts as 'Push auto exposure' in Manual mode
- Soft clipping / limiter in manual audio mode
- Peaking and zebra together
- Magnification that works during recording
- Exposure override via iris ring in TV mode
- Custom presets select via shutter scroll wheel
- Image flip on LCD
- Image flip on CCD
- Exposure lock disables AGC adjustments
- Improvements of NR1, NR2
- Additional stop(s) between 1/25 and 1/50 (1/33 and/or 1/40)
- Intermediate steps in gain
- Remaining battery time in real minutes
- Improvement of the "night" mode
- Conversion 50i to 25f (playback)
- setting for "end play" button to allow for a long push
- white balance settings below 2800 K
- photo buttons to be used as a possible custom preset button
- option to disable AF during zooms (to prevent focus pulsing when filming in AF)
- ability for custom preset to be displayed on screen by name (as opposed to just number)
- option to allocate AWB switch as OIS Switch or XLR mic / onboard mic switch
- ability to fine tune the LCD and CRT viewfinder to match colors in menu settings
- additional digital zoom in SD
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Old January 20th, 2007, 04:03 PM   #101
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Maybe adding more time options for the Focus / Zoom preset key!! slower and faster, with ease in and out options and a delay after the click...
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Old January 20th, 2007, 04:09 PM   #102
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Heh! Heh! Now I want all of these functions! So many great suggestions. How am I ever going to decide when it comes to the poll!
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Old January 20th, 2007, 04:21 PM   #103
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time lapse feature !!!
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Old January 20th, 2007, 04:49 PM   #104
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Chris, I'm wondering if all these choices are overkill.

Looking at the list, it's almost two different polls - one a firmware upgrade request, and the second a wishlist for the next camera revision. Maybe two polls are an option that would still allow everyone to express their wishes without undercutting our request for a few basic features in a near future firmware upgrade.

Just throwing this out there to try and be realistic, so we don't dilute our message.
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Old January 20th, 2007, 04:56 PM   #105
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I think the idea is that through the polls we can express democratically what the top requests are for a firmware update for the camera.

Certainly there are a couple of things that Canon should probably fix (bugs) regardless of whether they listen to us or not. But there is no reason why *most* of the rest of the items on the list could not be implemented by firmware.

The top (I can't remember how many) items may well get styled into a firmware update request to Canon. The rest may well get put on a wishlist for future revisions.

Again, Canon may pay us no attention whatsoever, but if we don't ask we certainly don't get.
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