Possible to upgrade A1 to G1? at DVinfo.net

Arthur Kay · January 26th, 2007, 01:11 PM

Scuse the maybe stupid question, but I was wondering...

Would it be possible to retro-fit the pro jack pack to the A1, and flash the firmware, making it a G1?

Right now I have the A1 and loving it, but I can see the need for Genlock in the future... hence the question.
I didn't have the budget to stretch for a G1 right now.

If not, wouldn't it be great if that were possible?

Cheers and thanks for having such a great board guys!

Arthur

Pete Bauer · January 26th, 2007, 01:25 PM

Nope, can't do it.

Arthur Kay · January 26th, 2007, 01:27 PM

Dang, woud've been great though, no? :D

Cheers
Arthur

Chris Hurd · January 26th, 2007, 01:30 PM

Your best upgrade path is to simply sell the A1 and put that money toward the G1.

Bogdan Tyburczy · January 26th, 2007, 02:19 PM

Or maybe G2... Who knows :)

Barry Gribble · January 26th, 2007, 04:28 PM

I've wondered myself how different the internal electronics are. Do they use the same boards, and just not add the interface? Or are they using different boards?

I know that the addition of the jacks doesn't actually cost $3000, so it's interesting to me that it is basically a "charge the amateurs this much, and the professionals that much" kinda thing. Airlines have been doing it forever.

Pete Bauer · January 26th, 2007, 04:52 PM

Doubtful anyone is willing to tear apart their XH A1 to find out, but actually I'd guess the jackpack circuitry is separate from the mainboard. From what I understand second-hand, putting SDI in cameras actually does cost the manufacturers quite a bit. It isn't just the jacks but the engineering and licensing. Maybe there's more profit in the G1 than the A1, or maybe there's not...don't know. It costs what it costs.

Chris Hurd · January 26th, 2007, 05:21 PM

It's a value proposition. What is it *worth* to you? That's what you're paying for.

Pete is right, a substantial chunk of that extra $3000 is SMPTE licensing.

Russ Speiser · January 27th, 2007, 12:51 PM

You beat me to it! This was my burning question for the last four days waiting to be approved so I could post here.

OTOH, if the answer is indeed "No" (although I still wonder if some third-party possibility might turn up...) why not one of those component to HD-SDI converters, like this one:
http://www.aja.com/html/products_con...s_HD10AVA.html

I think this one is about $900, but that's a good bit lower than the additional G1 cost.

We're looking at getting 2-3 XH A1/G1's and a mixer for big screen concert projection and event coverage and were thinking of the Edirol SD/HD mixer, but with the price of the new Panasonic AV-HS300G HD-SDI mixer at $8000 (!!!!), this sure seems like a more forward thinking way to go.

...actually I'm thinking you need some sort of "box" sitting on (or near) your camera anyway, as analog component HD over 100m of cables probably needs some help either in an amplifier or a Cat5/6 interface.

I'd be interested to hear of other's experience in using the A1/G1 with a switcher.

Russ

Peter Ferling · January 27th, 2007, 09:54 PM

Well, I'm shooting with a G1 and going HD-SDI ingest via AJA on Cineform. I can tell you that shooting the same scenes with both HDV and HD-SDI, the results of both are pretty close. It's not a great divide, in my opinion. There is more data in the image, and the colors do shift slightly for HDV. There are times where I couldn't tell which mode I was shooting in.

I've had this camera for a month now and have yet to shoot a keyed or green screen set. Too busy at the moment.

However, to get the real benefit from the SDI pipeline, I'd have to be tethered to something heavy, and use a large production monitor on set. Which is ok for fixed shots and the one-man band.

It's also 'catch 22'. That is, if you're going to be shooting 4:2:2 HD-SDI all the time, and investing in all the extra supports, it's more than just a $3000 camera upgrade. More like $10,000, (until a lightweight on-camera solution is available). In which case most folks would just either get an H1 for the lens' options, or something much higher end. When you factor in all the extra time, gear and hands needed for that format... It's kinda like dressing up in full armor and then bringing a pocket knife to go into battle with.

My deal is that I shoot HDV for the most part, but occassionally require 4:2:2, and the G1 fits the bill. I don't have to own or rent a higher end camera that will rarely leave it's case, so I can use the G1 on all my jobs and have the satisfaction knowing that it can do more when needed.

Which applies to you?

Russ Speiser · January 28th, 2007, 09:34 AM

The only situation I can think of when I would like to capture 4:2:2 would be compositing, and even then, I've heard that well lit 4:2:0 can do a fine job, so it's not so much capturing HD-SDI for quality issues, it's trying to decide what camera+switcher direction to go for HD large screen projection and event production (like covering a conference providing IMAG and selling DVDs of the event afterwards).

As far as portability, the AJA converters look pretty good; run off 5vdc, about 6" x 3" x 1", minimal line delay (HD10A component -> HD-SDI in <1 usec!)

The choices I'm seeing for a low-budget compact solution for us are:

A) 3 XH A1's --> Edirol V-440HD ($22,000)
B) 3 XH A1's + converters --> Panasonic AV-HS300G ($25,000)
C) 3 XH G1's --> AV-HS300G ($29,000)

Other issues:
- HD-SDI cabling would probably be easier than the 3 conductor HD analog, wouldn't it?

- In-field monitoring is slightly more expensive for SDI (either a 15" with Quad splitter or 4 rack mount LCDs, both easily available from Marshall, for instance).

- Need some sort of VTR to record the mixer output, with either HD-SDI, component or VGA inputs.

Anybody done anything like this?

Russ

Salar Ghazi · February 14th, 2007, 05:18 AM

Hi,
to be frank, I think, an upgrade should be easily done.
The simple reason is, why running two assembly lines/designs and raising cost, exept the ones for the extra circuitry needed?
A - maybe - bad example of what I mean:
I once bought a High End CD-Player (a Nakamichi), which was available in two versions:
The difference was Remote/no remote, programmability / no programmability.
and a headphone jack. The extra - price for those gadgeds was 500$
I bought the cheaper one.
When I bought the service manual some years later I found out that on the main board, which was identical in both players. everything was already prepared for the extra gadgets. The connections were left open, but the socktes were already soldered in.
Even if I bought the -passive- circuit boards needed + remote as spare parts, I would have only paid half of the price.
Okay, maybe apple to beans, but I guess, things will not have changed.

But Canon is very strict about service manuals. You can purchase SM from Sony or Panasonic, but not from Canon to take a look.
As one example, when I had a XL-1s, Canon did not give any information about the type and manufacturer of the CCD.
All te best,
Salar

Barry Gribble · February 14th, 2007, 09:31 AM

Salar,

My assumption is that the boards are the same as well... it doesn't make much sense for them to do it any other way.

Jack Jenkins · February 15th, 2007, 10:47 PM

I would agree that the production line probably makes A1's until the last step when the SDi ports are added.

...So maybe some brave A1 owner will pop open that hatch area (where the sdi out is on the G1's) and see whats under there?

James Hooey · February 24th, 2007, 03:11 PM

I agree that it is quite likely the same circuit board between the A1 and G1 and the jack pack is actually an additional board element with connections between them. The cover is there right in the spot where the jack pack would reside. The issue of firmware to support the jack pack I guess would be the other issue. You gotta have the menu choices to activate the functionality of a jack pack and the A1 certainly wouldn't have that buried in it's OS.

January 26th, 2007, 01:11 PM	#1
Arthur Kay Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	Possible to upgrade A1 to G1? Scuse the maybe stupid question, but I was wondering... Would it be possible to retro-fit the pro jack pack to the A1, and flash the firmware, making it a G1? Right now I have the A1 and loving it, but I can see the need for Genlock in the future... hence the question. I didn't have the budget to stretch for a G1 right now. If not, wouldn't it be great if that were possible? Cheers and thanks for having such a great board guys! Arthur

January 26th, 2007, 01:25 PM	#2
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Nope, can't do it. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

January 26th, 2007, 01:30 PM	#4
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Your best upgrade path is to simply sell the A1 and put that money toward the G1. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 26th, 2007, 04:28 PM	#6
Barry Gribble Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 817	I've wondered myself how different the internal electronics are. Do they use the same boards, and just not add the interface? Or are they using different boards? I know that the addition of the jacks doesn't actually cost $3000, so it's interesting to me that it is basically a "charge the amateurs this much, and the professionals that much" kinda thing. Airlines have been doing it forever. __________________ Barry Gribble Integral Arts, IMDB

January 26th, 2007, 04:52 PM	#7
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Doubtful anyone is willing to tear apart their XH A1 to find out, but actually I'd guess the jackpack circuitry is separate from the mainboard. From what I understand second-hand, putting SDI in cameras actually does cost the manufacturers quite a bit. It isn't just the jacks but the engineering and licensing. Maybe there's more profit in the G1 than the A1, or maybe there's not...don't know. It costs what it costs. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

January 26th, 2007, 01:27 PM	#3
Arthur Kay Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	Dang, woud've been great though, no? :D Cheers Arthur

January 26th, 2007, 02:19 PM	#5
Bogdan Tyburczy Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 161	Or maybe G2... Who knows :)

January 26th, 2007, 05:21 PM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	It's a value proposition. What is it worth to you? That's what you're paying for. Pete is right, a substantial chunk of that extra $3000 is SMPTE licensing. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 27th, 2007, 12:51 PM	#9
Russ Speiser New Boot Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Posts: 17	HD-SDI adapter? You beat me to it! This was my burning question for the last four days waiting to be approved so I could post here. OTOH, if the answer is indeed "No" (although I still wonder if some third-party possibility might turn up...) why not one of those component to HD-SDI converters, like this one: http://www.aja.com/html/products_con...s_HD10AVA.html I think this one is about $900, but that's a good bit lower than the additional G1 cost. We're looking at getting 2-3 XH A1/G1's and a mixer for big screen concert projection and event coverage and were thinking of the Edirol SD/HD mixer, but with the price of the new Panasonic AV-HS300G HD-SDI mixer at $8000 (!!!!), this sure seems like a more forward thinking way to go. ...actually I'm thinking you need some sort of "box" sitting on (or near) your camera anyway, as analog component HD over 100m of cables probably needs some help either in an amplifier or a Cat5/6 interface. I'd be interested to hear of other's experience in using the A1/G1 with a switcher. Russ

January 27th, 2007, 09:54 PM	#10
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Well, I'm shooting with a G1 and going HD-SDI ingest via AJA on Cineform. I can tell you that shooting the same scenes with both HDV and HD-SDI, the results of both are pretty close. It's not a great divide, in my opinion. There is more data in the image, and the colors do shift slightly for HDV. There are times where I couldn't tell which mode I was shooting in. I've had this camera for a month now and have yet to shoot a keyed or green screen set. Too busy at the moment. However, to get the real benefit from the SDI pipeline, I'd have to be tethered to something heavy, and use a large production monitor on set. Which is ok for fixed shots and the one-man band. It's also 'catch 22'. That is, if you're going to be shooting 4:2:2 HD-SDI all the time, and investing in all the extra supports, it's more than just a $3000 camera upgrade. More like $10,000, (until a lightweight on-camera solution is available). In which case most folks would just either get an H1 for the lens' options, or something much higher end. When you factor in all the extra time, gear and hands needed for that format... It's kinda like dressing up in full armor and then bringing a pocket knife to go into battle with. My deal is that I shoot HDV for the most part, but occassionally require 4:2:2, and the G1 fits the bill. I don't have to own or rent a higher end camera that will rarely leave it's case, so I can use the G1 on all my jobs and have the satisfaction knowing that it can do more when needed. Which applies to you?

January 28th, 2007, 09:34 AM	#11
Russ Speiser New Boot Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Posts: 17	The only situation I can think of when I would like to capture 4:2:2 would be compositing, and even then, I've heard that well lit 4:2:0 can do a fine job, so it's not so much capturing HD-SDI for quality issues, it's trying to decide what camera+switcher direction to go for HD large screen projection and event production (like covering a conference providing IMAG and selling DVDs of the event afterwards). As far as portability, the AJA converters look pretty good; run off 5vdc, about 6" x 3" x 1", minimal line delay (HD10A component -> HD-SDI in <1 usec!) The choices I'm seeing for a low-budget compact solution for us are: A) 3 XH A1's --> Edirol V-440HD ($22,000) B) 3 XH A1's + converters --> Panasonic AV-HS300G ($25,000) C) 3 XH G1's --> AV-HS300G ($29,000) Other issues: - HD-SDI cabling would probably be easier than the 3 conductor HD analog, wouldn't it? - In-field monitoring is slightly more expensive for SDI (either a 15" with Quad splitter or 4 rack mount LCDs, both easily available from Marshall, for instance). - Need some sort of VTR to record the mixer output, with either HD-SDI, component or VGA inputs. Anybody done anything like this? Russ

February 14th, 2007, 05:18 AM	#12
Salar Ghazi New Boot Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 20	Hi, to be frank, I think, an upgrade should be easily done. The simple reason is, why running two assembly lines/designs and raising cost, exept the ones for the extra circuitry needed? A - maybe - bad example of what I mean: I once bought a High End CD-Player (a Nakamichi), which was available in two versions: The difference was Remote/no remote, programmability / no programmability. and a headphone jack. The extra - price for those gadgeds was 500$ I bought the cheaper one. When I bought the service manual some years later I found out that on the main board, which was identical in both players. everything was already prepared for the extra gadgets. The connections were left open, but the socktes were already soldered in. Even if I bought the -passive- circuit boards needed + remote as spare parts, I would have only paid half of the price. Okay, maybe apple to beans, but I guess, things will not have changed. But Canon is very strict about service manuals. You can purchase SM from Sony or Panasonic, but not from Canon to take a look. As one example, when I had a XL-1s, Canon did not give any information about the type and manufacturer of the CCD. All te best, Salar

February 14th, 2007, 09:31 AM	#13
Barry Gribble Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 817	Salar, My assumption is that the boards are the same as well... it doesn't make much sense for them to do it any other way. __________________ Barry Gribble Integral Arts, IMDB

February 15th, 2007, 10:47 PM	#14
Jack Jenkins Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 122	I would agree that the production line probably makes A1's until the last step when the SDi ports are added. ...So maybe some brave A1 owner will pop open that hatch area (where the sdi out is on the G1's) and see whats under there?

February 24th, 2007, 03:11 PM	#15
James Hooey Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bruce Pennisula, Canada Posts: 316	I agree that it is quite likely the same circuit board between the A1 and G1 and the jack pack is actually an additional board element with connections between them. The cover is there right in the spot where the jack pack would reside. The issue of firmware to support the jack pack I guess would be the other issue. You gotta have the menu choices to activate the functionality of a jack pack and the A1 certainly wouldn't have that buried in it's OS.