On Board Mic - Recording Band / Loud DJ - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XH Series HDV Camcorders

Canon XH Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XH G1S / G1 (with SDI), Canon XH A1S / A1 (without SDI).


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 19th, 2007, 09:00 PM   #16
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,298
For any loud venue, use the MIC ATT setting with the on-board mic if in doubt. It will probably do OK up to about the threshold of pain. If preserving the original audio dynamic range is not important, AGC mode is usually fine.

Good external are better, but they need to be a good external mic. Do not expect a $60 special to give you any significant improvement over he build-in mic.

Use earphones to monitor sound to detect clipping in the front preamp that might not manifest itself on the VU meter. The MIC level input preamp is ahead of the level controls, in which case the level control will not effect preamp clipping - just the meter indication (that is standard, not a Canon-unique apprach). However, MIC ATT setting will help.
__________________
dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com
Don Palomaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2007, 04:45 AM   #17
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London, England
Posts: 127
Yes, you definitely need to have the ATT on in such loud environments.

On the first wedding I used my A1 I did use earphones but the noise level from the DJ was such that I couldn't hear anything in them, so I went outside briefly during the reception and played back some footage to check the levels.

The XLR mic has made a vast improvement over the onboard mic however as Don noted, a cheaper external will probably not be much better than the onboard.

Don do you have any experience with XL1s microphone - is it just me who thinks the sound capabilities of it were far greater than the onboard A1 mic?
__________________
Sunny Dhinsey
Director - www.filmlore.tv
Sunny Dhinsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2007, 05:29 AM   #18
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,298
I've not yet done a critical comparison of the XL1 mic to the A1 internal mic.
__________________
dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com
Don Palomaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2007, 12:47 PM   #19
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 199
I just shoot live show this weekend and i forgot to turn the ATn on and i paid for it dearly. The second day i made sure it was on and sound was a fab. I left the control M, next i will try with auto. Do any of you guys use ocktava?
Kiflom Bahta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2007, 04:20 PM   #20
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 294
But to clarify, did you use the onboard mic with ATT on for the live show, or an external mic? Or are just thinking of purchasing the Octava?

I shot more music footage the other night, with the ATT on this time and it was fine with the onboard mic.

I was also testing the gain for the lighting, 3 and 6 were ok, but 12 was way too grainy. (off topic to the audio portion, I know, but relevant to low light recording which usually comes with this)

Trish
Trish Kerr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2007, 08:08 PM   #21
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,298
Just shot the my first reception using the A1 (moved up from the GL1/XL1). Found that internal MIC with MIC ATT setting (and AGC) was fine for wedding reception dancing with overly loud DJ planning generic rock music. Heck, the sound was so loud it hurt my ears, and people could not talk to each other at the tables. In this sort of venue there is no such thing as quality sound, just various degrees of beat. THis is also the sort of imaging where they client is usually not interested in music quality, but is seeing the guests (and themselves) on the floor dancing, etc.
__________________
dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com
Don Palomaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2007, 08:34 PM   #22
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 959
AGC lameness

Don, I realized something last night while on a gig at a reception. As we all know, there's no way to select separate channels for AGC. This in itself is ridiculous to begin with & has always been in my top 5 of complaints regarding the A1.

I noticed something peculiar with the meters & had a hunch & tried something. I always used a wireless handheld mic on a stand a few feet from a band or dj monitor. I went near the opposite monitor & pointed the shotgun mic toward it. The A1's level of my wireless mic channel went considerably LOWER! If I moved away from the monitor, the wireless channel went back to it's preferred level.

I NEVER thought to test this, thinking surely that even though the AGC switch selects both channels & not independently... it activates the same way as well. Meaning... whatever level changes are to one channel, it's going to affect the other also.

I get steamed thinking about this, but from now on will have to meticulously set levels manually for venues of this nature.

End of mini-rant :-\

Bill
Bill Busby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2007, 08:55 AM   #23
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,298
IMHO, setting manual levels in a typical wedding reception with a DJ in crowded room, at least as implemented around here, is by and large a waste of effort. If one needs the music neat and clean, get the materal on CD and dub in post. If there is a live band, the answer might be different depending on the nature of the band. And then you may need an audio engineert and mixer to get a consistent product. If I want good clean ambient sound of the band or DJ, I use a separate MiniDISC or similar recorder left free running, and add it in post.

That AGC tracks and effects both channels is consistent with the XL/GL series (and Canon's camcorders before that). Tracking by the AGC is necesary if the stereo image/sound stage is to be preserved when recording stereo program material.

I also found that the AGC worked great for table invterviews during the dancing, far better than I would have expected just from meter indications. It gave a bit of a side-chain voice-over effect when the guest spoke into the handheld wireless mic providing better thatn expected seoparation form the DJ efforts. (Used a Shure Beta 58 mic with Sony wireless transmitter for that.) The AGC does provide some what of a sta-level like effect that is very helpful in that sort of one-man operations.

However, do what works to meet your artistic intent, the clients needs, and that characterizes the product you produce.
__________________
dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com
Don Palomaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2007, 11:28 AM   #24
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 199
I used the onboard mic. It was good enough but ATTn on is a must. I use my octova with my other camera's, it doesn't fit right with A1 mount. I am still trying to find a way to do it. I never have the camera on auto for anything. So are you guys saying going Auto on the audio better?
Kiflom Bahta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2007, 12:31 PM   #25
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,298
Whether or not to use AGC for audio is situational decision. If you do not have a compelling need to retain the original dynamic range of the audio source, and do not have free hands to deal with managing levels as you shoot, than AGC is generally a good alternative.

If you have a need to preserve the original dynamic range, then AGC would not normally be a great choice, especially if there is a wide range in sound level. You may be better off estimating the maximum expected sound level and recording at a low enough level to ensure you do not hit clipping on audio peaks.

You have to decide based on your program material and your project needs. And remember that all advice you find on the internet is worth at least what you paid for it, some maybe a bit more. One person's obsession is another's "who cares." Experiences related by others can help you understand the options and that can help you make the call as you build your own experience pool upon which to rely, but no one else can make that call for you, especially over the internet.

BTW: Which Oktava model are you using with a camcorder?

- - -

Especially for events such as weddings: Average sound is much better than bad sound, and for the most part Joe and Jane Sixpack don't know the difference between average sound and good sound. They only know what Uncle Charlie shot hand held from the last row at the school concert with his $300 handicam's built-in mic (before the battery died), and then played back over their TV.
__________________
dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com
Don Palomaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2007, 01:09 PM   #26
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 199
Thanks Don. I am using MK12. It is small and it doen't stick out and the sound is great. I was getting tired changing the levels while shooting and also bumbing up in the post. i will try auto for my next shoot. My biggest fear is the audio might get distorted if i leave it in auto?
Kiflom Bahta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2007, 02:20 PM   #27
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,298
Do some practice. If nothing else, turn your stereo tp blast and play around, before the next shoot. or find a garage band practicing and shoot them, to see how things work for you.
__________________
dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com
Don Palomaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 27th, 2007, 05:05 PM   #28
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 157
Good results

Last night I shot an EXTREMELY loud band last night in LA. The audio came out clear and completely undistorted. Here's what I had:

AT-897 shortgun mic mounted on camera
XLR input on obviously
12+db boost off
audio level auto
att on
Steve Yager is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XH Series HDV Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:27 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network