XL2 captures with motion blur at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders

Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders
Canon XL2 / XL1S / XL1 and GL2 / XM2 / GL1 / XM1.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 22nd, 2007, 04:31 AM   #1
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Conroe TX
Posts: 5
XL2 captures with motion blur

I have recently gone from borrowing a Sony DSR200 to buying an XL2. I normally left the DSR on auto when shooting Friday night football with no problems. I tried using the auto with the XL2 and the video looks like there is motion blur any time there is panning involved (which is most of the time; and fast). I have no experience shooting on manual and need fast advice for some settings since the next game is later in the week. I wish I had time for experimentation but don't at this point in the game...no pun intended.
The video from the tape and the FS-4 was captured with the same result using Edius.
It was shot in 4:3 using 30fps; automatic.

Last edited by Robert Engel; October 22nd, 2007 at 05:04 AM. Reason: forgot important info
Robert Engel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2007, 12:08 PM   #2
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: los angeles
Posts: 38
It's likely you're getting motion blur 'cos in AUTO, the camera is compensating for (what I'm assuming is a) low light situation, therefor lowerer the shutter speed to 15th/sec so the image can soak up as much light and info as it can.

Try putting the camera on TV mode and set the shutter to 30 (of in 30p), although 60i might be better suited, in which case 60th/sec. Have fun.

Last edited by Pete Bauer; October 26th, 2007 at 06:19 PM. Reason: removed flame ("con man" accusation)
R.W. Swanson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2007, 06:18 AM   #3
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Conroe TX
Posts: 5
Friday Night Fun

My friend and I have done this for the booster club, gratis, for some time now. We've always done a 2 camera shoot but with the same type cameras. Not sure yet what the 60i is or what it will look like compared to the Sony footage. I've only had the camera for two weeks and have only shot some cross country footage during the day/evening with great results. I hope to get some time with it in the next few weeks. I may just have to use the Sony until I can experiment. Hopefully the season won't be over where I can go to a night game and work with some different settings.

I appreciate the insight you've given thus far.
Robert Engel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2007, 01:08 PM   #4
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 423
60i is shooting at 60 fields per second, interlaced. It's a very common way to shoot standard definition video. The camera scans the odd lines on the chip first to create one field, then goes back and scans the even lines to create another field. Once the camera has both fields it overlays them to create one frame. 60i usually gives pretty smooth motion because of the overlay, but a lot of people see the overlay as degrading the picture quality because you can't really get a sharp edge to an object. The lack of a sharp edge is caused by the delay that happens between processing the first field and the second field.

I hope that helps out a little bit on what 60i is, and why it would be good for shooting "action."

FYI - right out of the box the Sony you mentioned is going to give better low light response than the XL2. Sony uses chips that are more sensitive to light (have a lower lux rating) than what are in the XL2. This doesn't mean that the XL2 is an inferior camera, just that you need to know how to operate the camera in low light situations, use presets to help the image out, and practice a lot with the camera. It's a pretty sophisticated piece of equipment with a steep learning curve. I've had mine for a little over a year and I'm still learning things about the camera.

Hope this helps...

Kevin
__________________
"... the drama is on your doorstep..." - John Grierson
www.grvideo.net
Kevin Randolph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2007, 07:01 PM   #5
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 47
For outdoor daytime shooting, I've found 30p to be better

Everybody's problem is a little different but in my situation I found that with my XL2, shooting in 30p using Tv mode gives about the best quality. I am a sports videographer working with cyclists in particular at the moment. I'm new to both shooting videos and my XL2. I did a preliminary shoot using 60i Full Auto and found the results to be less than stellar. For a frame of reference, I went back and shot a test case using the following settings:

60i Full Auto
30p Full Auto
60i Tv @ 2000
30p Tv @ 2000
60i Av @ F8
30p Av @ F8

My subject was my daughter riding up the same path at the same speed for all 6 passes. I captured stills in the exact same place to compare. The quality, at least to me, of the video's pretty much goes hand in hand with the stills. Another point of concern, at least for me and my clients, is that it is an absolute requirement to scan through a video frame by frame to look at the position and posture of the rider. 60i is simply terrible for doing this.

I've attached a pdf with the stills and the differences are quite obvious.

I believe however the real point here to be made is, until you really know, it is a good thing to run some test shots with different settings to see what gives the best results. I've got a unique problem I'm trying to solve and for this one particular shoot I have coming up, 30p with Tv @2000 looks to be the right solution. The same shoot at a different time of day or under different external conditions would edict a different solution. Something indoors, for sure completely different. If your like me, your drinking from a firehose at the moment. I rarely post on this forum, mostly I've been reading like crazy. This happened to be something that I found a solution for my problem that was similar to yours so I thought I'd make a post.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Still_Comparison.pdf (310.3 KB, 385 views)
Phil Hoppes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2007, 10:47 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 342
Good one, Phil! I downloaded the pdf for future reference. Don't be a stranger.
Jack Barker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 29th, 2007, 04:37 AM   #7
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Conroe TX
Posts: 5
Post Game Show

Firstly, thank you all for the tips and useful information.
I finally got the opportunity to go to a night game and experiment with different settings and review the results to see what would work.
The TV mode at 60 turned out to be the best; with a sharp picture, balanced color and light. This was at a high school venue, at night, with fairly new technology lights in the stadium.

Thanks again
Robert Engel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2007, 03:01 PM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Florence, KY
Posts: 345
Phil thanks for the .pdf
Do you still have the data for these shoots? If so, could you get the actual camera data in those shots?

Eventhough you were in Tv and Av It should still give you your shutter speed and aperature setting? I am curious to see these "actual" levels rather than the setting.

Also do you know how fast she was moving? This would help me out alot. I am assuming that you were not panning with her? this seems to be just a still from the frame when she passed through Is that correct?

I am currently shooting some basketball games and trying to work out some bugs. Currently 60i is giving me the better look but I am wanting to try to increase my shutter in 30p. (light is not a problem).

I am targeting 30p, Tv 1/1000 as my next trial.

This is why I hope your daughter is moving on out pretty good...
If I know what your exact setting's were it may

Last edited by Guy Godwin; December 18th, 2007 at 06:20 PM.
Guy Godwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2007, 11:10 AM   #9
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Godwin View Post
Phil thanks for the .pdf
Do you still have the data for these shoots? If so, could you get the actual camera data in those shots?

Eventhough you were in Tv and Av It should still give you your shutter speed and aperature setting? I am curious to see these "actual" levels rather than the setting.

Also do you know how fast she was moving? This would help me out alot. I am assuming that you were not panning with her? this seems to be just a still from the frame when she passed through Is that correct?

I am currently shooting some basketball games and trying to work out some bugs. Currently 60i is giving me the better look but I am wanting to try to increase my shutter in 30p. (light is not a problem).

I am targeting 30p, Tv 1/1000 as my next trial.

This is why I hope your daughter is moving on out pretty good...
If I know what your exact setting's were it may
Well, I had it in both Av and Tv mode. To get the automatic settings there would have to be meta data on a frame by frame basis. Does the XL2 actually do this and how do you get it? I had IS on, AF on and Gain in Auto. WB was auto. Presets were the factory defaults, I've not changed those at all yet.

Actually I was panning the shot. I have a DvRig Pro shoulder mount and I positioned myself such that at her closest approach she was about 10' away from me. She was simply riding up and down the street. I pulled these stills from the movie. I picked the exact same point as her speed and my movement were similar for each shot. At the point that still is taken she was about 10 yards away from me, I was about 20 degrees from a right angle to her direction of movement and she was moving at probably 10 to maybe 15 Mph. Faster than anyone could run on a baskeball court if you are trying to relate it to your issue.

In your case, it may be a tossup between 30p and 60i. I know from my inside shots, 60i, visually, looks more pleasing (at least to my geriatric eyes) than 30p. It is very subtle, but my subjective feeling is that 60i looks a little better. But, in my specific case, the coach wants to do stop frame analysis of the video afterward and hands down 30p looks much better as there are no interlace artifacts.
Phil Hoppes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2007, 07:45 PM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Florence, KY
Posts: 345
If you still have the tape, you can play it back and select the "data code" button on the remote. The display will give you the actual camera data for that frame. As you are watching the playback in those modes you can see the "fixed" setting (Iris in Av and Shutter in Tv) and also see the other setting as it vary's based on the conditions.

By using this we could see the "actual camera data".

60i vs 30p I have read on here all the benifits of 30p etc..etc..etc..But like you say. My best images have always been in 60i, even when there are some interlaced artifacts poping up.

I was impressed with your 30p pictures which is why I was asking the details
Guy Godwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2007, 10:09 AM   #11
Tourist
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Deigo, CA
Posts: 1
Data Code

Thanks Guy for the tip on Data Code. This will greatly help me as I'm learning what settings I like with my new camera - sometimes I don't write down everything like I should when I'm doing test footage.

Lots to learn with this camera.

Thanks everyone for your tips & questions. It helps newbies like me get a handle on at least some of the features of this camera.
Greg Denning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2007, 10:22 AM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Godwin View Post
If you still have the tape, you can play it back and select the "data code" button on the remote. The display will give you the actual camera data for that frame. As you are watching the playback in those modes you can see the "fixed" setting (Iris in Av and Shutter in Tv) and also see the other setting as it vary's based on the conditions.

By using this we could see the "actual camera data".

60i vs 30p I have read on here all the benifits of 30p etc..etc..etc..But like you say. My best images have always been in 60i, even when there are some interlaced artifacts poping up.

I was impressed with your 30p pictures which is why I was asking the details
I never write over a tape.......except that specific one which is a scratch tape that I use for just such things. Sorry, the data is gone as I know I've written over it. What I did was a simple enough experiment however. You might try, next basketball game you to to film, arrive early enough to do the same experiment yourself. Have a player to some layups for you or just shoot the teams during warm up. Go through the matrix of possible settings and take note of what settings you shot in what order. After the game, just download and compare the results. Probably more meaningful to you as it is in the specific setting you are looking for.

Phil
Phil Hoppes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2007, 12:01 PM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Florence, KY
Posts: 345
I actually did that very thing a few nights ago..

However, I could get the exact same shot. I may send my son out and do the same thing you did.

One problem I have is that this gym is very dark and I can't get the high shutter speed like you could.
Guy Godwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2007, 01:29 PM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Houston/Austin
Posts: 394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Godwin View Post
Phil thanks for the .pdf


I am targeting 30p, Tv 1/1000 as my next trial.
Ouch. Shutter should not be more than 1/60 in 30p without good reason really. If you're going to shoot 1/1000 you might as well just shoot in 60i.
Adam Bray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2007, 07:26 PM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Florence, KY
Posts: 345
Yes, I have found that out real fast..
All I am doing is a little experimenting trying to get 30i to look
decent. I realy have not gotten there all my 60i looks much better.
Guy Godwin is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:23 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network