after they work out the possible bugs will there be xl2s (like xl1 to xl1s)?

Bill Pryor · July 20th, 2004, 10:31 AM

Yep, same with professional cameras. You buy the camera and then put whatever lens, batteries, viewfinder, etc., you want. What a concept...been around for decades. That's one of the good things about the XL series. Only issue there, for me, is that when you put a good, sharp lens on the camera, you lose the optical stabilization you get with the electronic lenses, don't you? And that stabilizer is one of the reasons for buying one of the smaller cameras, in my opinion.

David Ziegelheim · July 20th, 2004, 10:55 AM

<<Only issue there, for me, is that when you put a good, sharp lens on the camera, you lose the optical stabilization you get with the electronic lenses, don't you? >>

Only if you consider the 16x manual the only sharp lens. If you rent, you can pick the lens(es) you need. Most purchasers under $10k that I know only have one lens with their camera.

The two 'modular' features of the XLxx series are the lens and the viewfinder. There are two viewfinders, an LCD that approximates the LCD on most prosumer viewfinders, and a CRT that would be a good unit on a 1/2" CCD camera, and costs $1550. On larger cameras, the body can be ordered without a viewfinder.

There are now 4 lenses, all Canon models specific to this camera. All are good, however only one is considered 'professional' by the some of the posters here (not me in this case, I think they are all good). Typically, on 1/2" and large cameras you have a choice of 3 or more lenses from each of 2 or more manufacturers, and then some of those lenses have an option to come with or without an integrated doubler.

One place the XL2 does shine, and where I think it will get a lot of use, is with the P+S Technic Mini35. That of course has the option of numerious 35mm film lenses (typically costing 2-3 times the price of the XL2 each). And doesn't but its own lens in the middle. With 24p, the XL2 will probably be the Mini35 platform of choice.

The original XL1 filled a huge void between consumer and professional cameras. And came at a time when DV was new. Its prosumer competitor was the VX1000.

The XL2 enters a market with competitors, rather than defining a new market. Like the original Porsche 911, the basic design and concept was good enough that it is still competitive. And in a competitive market price counts.

If price didn't count people would drive Ferrari's instead of Porsches, Lexuses instead of Toyotas, and shoot with SDX900s and CineAltas.

So how Canon configures the package does count.

Chris Hurd · July 20th, 2004, 11:08 AM

How Canon configures the package is actually immaterial to a pro shooter. As I said before, authorized Canon dealers will sell the body with your choice of viewfinder and lens, starting hopefully no more than a month after the initial release. Hope this helps,

Dan Euritt · July 20th, 2004, 02:27 PM

what, pro shooters suddenly don't have to worry about budgets??

the point david is making is that getting it from the factory in a package format will be cheaper than what you'll pay for seperate parts at a dealer.

re-reading your post, it does appear that you'll be able to get the xl2 with the crt viewfinder instead of the lcd viewfinder, hopefully with the associated cost savings... that is good!

Yi Fong Yu · July 20th, 2004, 05:07 PM

chris, i think what they were trying to ask was that if we could get XL2 BODY ONLY and junk the color viewfinder. but of course keep the remote, dv firewire, lenscap to screw on the XL2 body, strap, manual, shoulder support. then package that with the FU-1000 viewfinder, and then a choice lens of your own along with other optional accessories, such as microphone, battery packs and what not. heck i wouldn't mind that at all no matter what the cost... as long as i don't spend taht extra $300-500 on color viewfinder... unless that color viewfinder happens to be same resolution as the FU-1000 and is CRT?

Don Berube · July 20th, 2004, 05:43 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Yi Fong Yu : unless that color viewfinder happens to be same resolution as the FU-1000 and is CRT? -->>>

Yi, here's another "trust me on this one" DV TidBit for you: A $300-500 color 'high resolution' electronic CRT viewfinder simply does not exist, from any manufacturer. I'm assuming that you are asking for a color CRT EVF that shows at least a full 960x480 resolution?

Do you feel that the 2" 200K LCD on the XL2 is any less resolute than the larger 3.5" 200K LCD on the DVX?

Let me ask everyone a question which I asked previously, but this time a little differently: Are you willing to spend only $3000 for your dream camera -or- are you at least willing to spend 15% more than what it actually costs the manufacturer to produce your dream camera? Would you spend $8500-10000 for a camera that offered you everything you want? Are you prepared to spend that money this year -or- do you think you just might be able to save up that much 3 years from now?

Just wondering,

Thanks!

- don

Yi Fong Yu · July 20th, 2004, 06:22 PM

i wouldn't mind buying the XL2 body for ~$3700 (subtract the color viewfinder)+ $1600 (for the FU-1k)+$1400(for the 3x wide lens) for a total of:
$6700.

i wouldn't mind paying for that.

David Ziegelheim · July 20th, 2004, 08:32 PM

The DVX has peaking on both the LCD and EVF and a B/W switch for the EVF.

Don Donatello · July 20th, 2004, 10:39 PM

it seems the price point persons are willing to "pay" for these camera's are in the 3200-4000 range .. IMO this group is very difficult to please as they want it all for that price. they want to OWN it so renting a 2/3 CCD 16x9 camera for their project is out of the question. so they have to live with the limitations in that price range BUT they do get the MOST bang for their $$$$ in that price range ...
3200-4000 is a price point that is chargable right now - you just BUY it on the credit card ..doesn't matter if camera doesn't generate revenue = it's expendable. and at the end of the project you have something to show for your 3200 even if project fails ... 25K+ camera is not chargable and one would really think about how they could generate revenue with this 25k+ camera = 25k is not expendable ....

David Ziegelheim · July 21st, 2004, 06:26 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Don Donatello : it seems the price point persons are willing to "pay" for these camera's are in the 3200-4000 range .. IMO this group is very difficult to please as they want it all for that price. they want to OWN it so renting a 2/3 CCD 16x9 camera for their project is out of the question. so they have to live with the limitations in that price range BUT they do get the MOST bang for their $$$$ in that price range ...
3200-4000 is a price point that is chargable right now - you just BUY it on the credit card ..doesn't matter if camera doesn't generate revenue = it's expendable. and at the end of the project you have something to show for your 3200 even if project fails ... 25K+ camera is not chargable and one would really think about how they could generate revenue with this 25k+ camera = 25k is not expendable .... -->>>

Is may even more like you can rent an 2/3" camera (SDX900 is only 24p one). However you shoot a lot of stuff that doesn't justify the cost, insurance, and time to due the rental. So you use your own camera.

The XL1 surpassed the VX1000, then came the GL1, the VX2000, The PD150, the XL1S and DVX100, then the DVX100A and now the XL2. If my memory serves me correctly, the GL1 was the must have prosumer camera when it came out. I saw my first one with some students shooting a film in Penn Station.

Each added features that previously weren't available. For instance the VX2000 added 1/3" CCDs and manual audio level controls to the GL1 form-factor. The DVX100 added 24p. Before that it was never mentioned, to the best of my recollection, in a video discussion. It was something you got with film.

Once the features were introduced, we expected them on every camera we considered.

Don Berube · July 21st, 2004, 07:19 AM

David,

What percentage exactly of the footage you are shooting do you feel that you actually need 24P? Why?

- don

Chris Hurd · July 21st, 2004, 07:31 AM

<< For instance the VX2000 added 1/3" CCDs and manual audio level controls to the GL1 form-factor >>

Incorrect, the VX2000 was the successor to the VX1000, a 3-CCD 1/3rd-inch camcorder DV which came out long before the GL1.

July 20th, 2004, 11:08 AM	#48
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	How Canon configures the package is actually immaterial to a pro shooter. As I said before, authorized Canon dealers will sell the body with your choice of viewfinder and lens, starting hopefully no more than a month after the initial release. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 20th, 2004, 05:07 PM	#50
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	chris, i think what they were trying to ask was that if we could get XL2 BODY ONLY and junk the color viewfinder. but of course keep the remote, dv firewire, lenscap to screw on the XL2 body, strap, manual, shoulder support. then package that with the FU-1000 viewfinder, and then a choice lens of your own along with other optional accessories, such as microphone, battery packs and what not. heck i wouldn't mind that at all no matter what the cost... as long as i don't spend taht extra $300-500 on color viewfinder... unless that color viewfinder happens to be same resolution as the FU-1000 and is CRT? __________________ bow wow wow

July 20th, 2004, 05:43 PM	#51
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	<<<-- Originally posted by Yi Fong Yu : unless that color viewfinder happens to be same resolution as the FU-1000 and is CRT? -->>> Yi, here's another "trust me on this one" DV TidBit for you: A $300-500 color 'high resolution' electronic CRT viewfinder simply does not exist, from any manufacturer. I'm assuming that you are asking for a color CRT EVF that shows at least a full 960x480 resolution? Do you feel that the 2" 200K LCD on the XL2 is any less resolute than the larger 3.5" 200K LCD on the DVX? Let me ask everyone a question which I asked previously, but this time a little differently: Are you willing to spend only $3000 for your dream camera -or- are you at least willing to spend 15% more than what it actually costs the manufacturer to produce your dream camera? Would you spend $8500-10000 for a camera that offered you everything you want? Are you prepared to spend that money this year -or- do you think you just might be able to save up that much 3 years from now? Just wondering, Thanks! - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

July 20th, 2004, 06:22 PM	#52
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	i wouldn't mind buying the XL2 body for ~$3700 (subtract the color viewfinder)+ $1600 (for the FU-1k)+$1400(for the 3x wide lens) for a total of: $6700. i wouldn't mind paying for that. __________________ bow wow wow

July 21st, 2004, 07:19 AM	#56
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	David, What percentage exactly of the footage you are shooting do you feel that you actually need 24P? Why? - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

July 20th, 2004, 10:31 AM	#46
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Yep, same with professional cameras. You buy the camera and then put whatever lens, batteries, viewfinder, etc., you want. What a concept...been around for decades. That's one of the good things about the XL series. Only issue there, for me, is that when you put a good, sharp lens on the camera, you lose the optical stabilization you get with the electronic lenses, don't you? And that stabilizer is one of the reasons for buying one of the smaller cameras, in my opinion.

July 20th, 2004, 10:55 AM	#47
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	<<Only issue there, for me, is that when you put a good, sharp lens on the camera, you lose the optical stabilization you get with the electronic lenses, don't you? >> Only if you consider the 16x manual the only sharp lens. If you rent, you can pick the lens(es) you need. Most purchasers under $10k that I know only have one lens with their camera. The two 'modular' features of the XLxx series are the lens and the viewfinder. There are two viewfinders, an LCD that approximates the LCD on most prosumer viewfinders, and a CRT that would be a good unit on a 1/2" CCD camera, and costs $1550. On larger cameras, the body can be ordered without a viewfinder. There are now 4 lenses, all Canon models specific to this camera. All are good, however only one is considered 'professional' by the some of the posters here (not me in this case, I think they are all good). Typically, on 1/2" and large cameras you have a choice of 3 or more lenses from each of 2 or more manufacturers, and then some of those lenses have an option to come with or without an integrated doubler. One place the XL2 does shine, and where I think it will get a lot of use, is with the P+S Technic Mini35. That of course has the option of numerious 35mm film lenses (typically costing 2-3 times the price of the XL2 each). And doesn't but its own lens in the middle. With 24p, the XL2 will probably be the Mini35 platform of choice. The original XL1 filled a huge void between consumer and professional cameras. And came at a time when DV was new. Its prosumer competitor was the VX1000. The XL2 enters a market with competitors, rather than defining a new market. Like the original Porsche 911, the basic design and concept was good enough that it is still competitive. And in a competitive market price counts. If price didn't count people would drive Ferrari's instead of Porsches, Lexuses instead of Toyotas, and shoot with SDX900s and CineAltas. So how Canon configures the package does count.

July 20th, 2004, 02:27 PM	#49
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	what, pro shooters suddenly don't have to worry about budgets?? the point david is making is that getting it from the factory in a package format will be cheaper than what you'll pay for seperate parts at a dealer. re-reading your post, it does appear that you'll be able to get the xl2 with the crt viewfinder instead of the lcd viewfinder, hopefully with the associated cost savings... that is good!

July 20th, 2004, 08:32 PM	#53
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	The DVX has peaking on both the LCD and EVF and a B/W switch for the EVF.

July 20th, 2004, 10:39 PM	#54
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	it seems the price point persons are willing to "pay" for these camera's are in the 3200-4000 range .. IMO this group is very difficult to please as they want it all for that price. they want to OWN it so renting a 2/3 CCD 16x9 camera for their project is out of the question. so they have to live with the limitations in that price range BUT they do get the MOST bang for their $$$$ in that price range ... 3200-4000 is a price point that is chargable right now - you just BUY it on the credit card ..doesn't matter if camera doesn't generate revenue = it's expendable. and at the end of the project you have something to show for your 3200 even if project fails ... 25K+ camera is not chargable and one would really think about how they could generate revenue with this 25k+ camera = 25k is not expendable ....

July 21st, 2004, 06:26 AM	#55
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	<<<-- Originally posted by Don Donatello : it seems the price point persons are willing to "pay" for these camera's are in the 3200-4000 range .. IMO this group is very difficult to please as they want it all for that price. they want to OWN it so renting a 2/3 CCD 16x9 camera for their project is out of the question. so they have to live with the limitations in that price range BUT they do get the MOST bang for their $$$$ in that price range ... 3200-4000 is a price point that is chargable right now - you just BUY it on the credit card ..doesn't matter if camera doesn't generate revenue = it's expendable. and at the end of the project you have something to show for your 3200 even if project fails ... 25K+ camera is not chargable and one would really think about how they could generate revenue with this 25k+ camera = 25k is not expendable .... -->>> Is may even more like you can rent an 2/3" camera (SDX900 is only 24p one). However you shoot a lot of stuff that doesn't justify the cost, insurance, and time to due the rental. So you use your own camera. The XL1 surpassed the VX1000, then came the GL1, the VX2000, The PD150, the XL1S and DVX100, then the DVX100A and now the XL2. If my memory serves me correctly, the GL1 was the must have prosumer camera when it came out. I saw my first one with some students shooting a film in Penn Station. Each added features that previously weren't available. For instance the VX2000 added 1/3" CCDs and manual audio level controls to the GL1 form-factor. The DVX100 added 24p. Before that it was never mentioned, to the best of my recollection, in a video discussion. It was something you got with film. Once the features were introduced, we expected them on every camera we considered.

July 21st, 2004, 07:31 AM	#57
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	<< For instance the VX2000 added 1/3" CCDs and manual audio level controls to the GL1 form-factor >> Incorrect, the VX2000 was the successor to the VX1000, a 3-CCD 1/3rd-inch camcorder DV which came out long before the GL1. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!