Audio inputs seperate on channels 1 & 2? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders

Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders
Canon XL2 / XL1S / XL1 and GL2 / XM2 / GL1 / XM1.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 21st, 2004, 12:00 PM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Posts: 624
Audio inputs seperate on channels 1 & 2?

Maybe i'm the only person who uses this feature, or maybe it's just been overlooked.

When shooting with full size (I use this term carefully..) cameras, DVCAM, DVCPRO, etc.. I often record the shotgun on channel 1 for ambient/backup and a handheld/radio mic on channel 2 as the main mic. (or vice versa, radio on 1, shotgun on 2)
This practice is especially comon while shooting news to ensure everything is captured (and where stereo doesn't matter - and for general TV, it normally doesn't for audio shot on location)

This is impossible using the XL1. channels 1&2 are always locked to the same source, Shotgun, OR ext. inputs. If i want to shoot with both the shotgun and a external mic, i have to use 4 channel (lower quality) audio with the shotgun on 1&2 and the external mic on channel 3 or 4.

After looking at some images of the XL2 online (including the poor res ones in the brosure on canon's site. (hint hint canon folks..)) it apears that channels 1 and 2 (AKA "Audio 1 - L & R") are still locked to the same source, Shotgun OR Ext. Input (RCAs or XLRs) PLEASE CANON TELL ME IT ISN'T SO! I see there is a channel 1/1&2 switch on the panel adjoining the Ext. input position, but I can only presume that is for recording mono from an external input (filling one channel to the other) like on the PD150. I also noticed a menu setting somewhere that refered to audio channels but it had no description.

Does anyone know if canon has made this simple practice in the (too often overlooked) world of audio possible, or has it been overlooked? Does anyone else share my gripe?

- Mikko
Mikko Wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2004, 12:12 PM   #2
Retired DV Info Net Almunus
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,943
Welcome Mikko,
For the sake of clarity, when you say "shotgun" are you actually referring to the camera's onboard microphone? On the XL1&S it looks like a directional, single-channel mic but it's actually an omni stereo (2 channel) mic.

I suspect that the XL2's onboard mic is the same basic design as that of its predecessors, so I also suspect that the Audio 1 channels will remain linked as either internal or external. Of course you can always mount a true directional shotgun mic to the camera (connected to one channel) and use the second channel for a lav.
__________________
Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission.

Hey, you don't have enough stuff!
Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really!

See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com
Ken Tanaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2004, 12:41 PM   #3
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
The stereo mic included with the XL2 is identical to that of the XL1 / XL1S.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2004, 01:15 PM   #4
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Posts: 624
Yeah, i mean the "stereo shotgun" (contradiction in terms there..) (rifle, etc.. pick a name..) mic on the camera.
and yeah i know i can stick a 3rd party (and better) shotgun on it.. but that's just mroe to buy - hmm, maybe canon should offer a package with a different shotgun for that purpose..

Incidently there's also the issue i didn't mention of the inputs beeing locked by level not just source on the XL1/s. Your ext. inputs are either mic, mic-att or line, but you can't mix and match. - say for using your own mic on one channel and a house feed from a mixer (line level) on the other input.
Mikko Wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2004, 01:39 PM   #5
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
Since that mic is stereo, then by definition it's going to require two channels. If you need an on-camera mic and an external mic, then remove the stereo mic and replace it with an on-camera mono shotgun (or whatever) -- this will require only one channel, leaving the other free for your other (mono) source.

Of course you can always record in 12-bit four-channel mode, having the onboard stereo mic as ch. 1 & 2, and then you have two other channels (3 & 4) available for an extra external mono mic or two (or one extra stereo mic). It's still CD-quality audio in 12-bit mode.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2004, 02:06 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Posts: 624
Haha,
I know as well as anyone there there is a plathora of ways to do it another way!
(and yeah i know the mic is stereo.. but summing the mics to make mono never hurt anyone (just look at the mic on the L1 - it has a switch right on it!))

My gripe is that canon doesn't allow me to do it the way a 'real' broadcast camera will, with a simple switch.

So, other than fixes around it; does anyone know if canon addressed my concern and does anyone share my complaints?

- Mikko.
Mikko Wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2004, 03:17 PM   #7
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
But with a "real" camera, it would be a mono on-board mic...

You can configure it just like a real camera as long as you have the right (mono) mics.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2004, 04:43 PM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bethel, VT
Posts: 824
<<My gripe is that canon doesn't allow me to do it the way a 'real' broadcast camera will, with a simple switch.

So, other than fixes around it; does anyone know if canon addressed my concern and does anyone share my complaints?
>>

It's hardly a shortcoming Mikko. Think of the cost of an XL and then the cost of the cameras you're talking about. Now think of the cost of a decent mono mic that you could mount on the Canon. At best the Canon mic, in mono is equivalent to an EV or any number of mics in the $100 range.

Adding a $100 mic to your kit to accomplish what you want is a no brainer and Canon's not including one is certainly not a cause for gripe. To your garden variety XL user (of course the target demo of Canon) including a decent quality stereo mic is a smart choice.

People would be griping if the onboard as a b grade mono mic. I often work as you do, and I have a bag of mics to choose from...you just need one, and for ambient backup it doesn't need to cost a lot. However, why not pick up an inexpensive Azden shotgun, then you'll have a backup condenser (always a good idea) as well as a much better on camera mic that can do exactly what you want.
Jim Giberti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2004, 04:34 PM   #9
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4,449
>My gripe is that canon doesn't allow me to do it the way a 'real' broadcast >camera will, with a simple switch.

There's the real issue: just because it's a very cool camera that turns out an excellent quality picture for the money does not mean it's a fully professional broadcast camera. Canon sells it as a consumer camera, even though it's priced out of the range of the typical consumer. Lots of people these days seem to think they should be able to have all the features of a $20,000 camera in a $5,000 camera. That would be nice, but probably not very profitable for the manufacturers. You can get just about anything you might want in a camera, but nobody's going to give you everything for $5,000. It would be nice if they did.
Bill Pryor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2004, 05:50 PM   #10
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,727
Yeah but come on. I'm sure adding this feature wouldn't have cost them too much. Couple of bucks maybe? I don't think we can go on saying "The Xl2 isn't a pro bradcast camera cause it's 40k less than one of those so it won't have the features".

I'm sure Canon could add some more "pro" features for next to nothing, but they just wouldn't - don't want to piss of the broadcast people too much. They added BNC on the back. That's good, and must have cost them probably 20cents. They could have done a lot more stuff like this, some of it purely software and have really helped us guys.

Aaron
__________________
My Website
Meat Free Media
Aaron Koolen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2004, 07:40 AM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Posts: 721
To the original post: This feature has always existed on the XL1. Separate left and right inputs into the xlr connections just like the pros. The only trouble was, to vary the input level you had to "ride" the balance rotary knob to compensate for variable sound pressures, mic sensitivities etc. 2 lavs, a lav and 66 shotgun, whatever the combo when working without the onboard stereo mic.

So!! The XL2 now has gain knobs for each input source connected to audio1 so that each channel can be properly dealt with at 16 bit fidelity! The answer to your question is yes! This feature has been upgraded on the XL2.
Jimmy McKenzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2004, 08:50 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Posts: 624
Thankyou all for your answers, and i agree with all of you.

I am fully aware that the XL2 (or XL1, GL...) isn't meant as a full pro camera. And yes, it does a lot of bang of the buck. I'm just curious (as we all are) what new features, esp. the poorly publicized ones, are on the XL2.

Horay for Bill for mentioning what i wish so many more people out there would, that no $5k piece of gear is a $20k+ piece of gear, however you look at it!

In response to Jimmy's post, yeah, i think that the separate volumes (as opposed to that balance thing they tried) are MUCH better. However my referal was to the originating source levels. (Mic/Line)
Though a high mic with max gain can generally use the same input as a quiet line level, i was refering to the ability to have one channel be mic level and another be line level. As i mentioned in my example of a rifle on ch1 as mic, and a house feed as line from a mixer on ch2.

Hehe, if i was really picky; i could always sugest canon have seperate AGC circuits for each channel too! But i think i may be pushing it. ;-)
Mikko Wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2004, 12:11 AM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Posts: 721
I follow you now... for event video capture situations like the ones that propogated your need for variable mic/line inputs, I know what you mean. In these cases, I have always defaulted to the "bring my own mixer and record out to minidisk as well as the xlr's on the safety cam" solution. This way I have a reference feed to the cam as well as a clean 48khz track to sync up later. extra work, but that's how the film industry does it with separate audio from the recorded image ... kinda tough though in run and gun situations.
Jimmy McKenzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2004, 12:13 PM   #14
RED Code Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 12,514
Technically it is not CD quality audio since 4 channels will drop to
12 bit / 32 kHz recording instead of 16 bit 48 kHz. Audio CD is
16 bit 44.1 kHz which is more than 4 channel DV recording.

Whether you will HEAR the difference on things like speech etc.
is a different matter, ofcourse.
__________________

Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com
DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef

Join the DV Challenge | Lady X

Search DVinfo.net for quick answers | Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors
Rob Lohman is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:20 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network