A naive question (frame rates)

Bill Pryor · July 28th, 2004, 09:51 AM

I saw that line in the JVC features about 60p, but I'll bet it's a misprint. Here's whate they say later on:

DV Mode 16:9 Anamorphic Wide
In DV mode, 16:9 Squeeze wide uses a wider view of the CCD (941 x 483 pixels) to create a full 16:9 image. This is then fit into the regular 4:3 NTSC signal to make a natural electrical anamorphic squeezed image to play back on a 16:9 TV at 60i.
•_ DV Mode 4:3 Digital Wide
Digital Wide's broader pixel area (941 x 646) generates a high resolution wide-angle image equivalent to a 0.7x wide conversion lens. The frame rate is 30fps output on 60i, with increased sensitivity.

I seriously doubt that this camera will give us slow motion video. Granted, in the features, it does say that, but then it seems to contradict things later. Nothing I could find in the specs that says it runs at 60fps progressive or otherwise.

Barry Green · July 28th, 2004, 10:27 AM

It does, I've used it. There are three different modes: "HD", "SD", and "DV".

In "DV" mode it's a 4:3, 60i picture, which records in the standard DV codec.

In "SD" mode it's different. It's a 16:9 picture and gets recorded at a full 60 progressive frames per second, at 720 x 480 resolution. It's recorded using an MPEG-2 codec.

Then there's "HD" mode, which is 1280 x 720 at 30 progressive frames per second, again recorded using an MPEG-2 codec.

Elisabeth James · June 8th, 2005, 05:25 PM

OK, if Steve thought his post was naive, this should make him feel better. To make a long story short, I gave my son an XL2 for his 21st birthday, which I thought was a good thing. But it seems every comment he has on it is about something bad. The latest is in regard to using the 24 frame mode for recording. He says the thing that records the timeline ( I told you this was naive...) continues to display a 1 to 30 frame increment instead of a 1 to 24 which would coincide with the 24 frame mode.
Since I doubt Canon "forgot" to consider this, I'm assuming there is some explanation or something he's missing?
Does that make sense?
Thanks

Patrick King · June 8th, 2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elisabeth James

To make a long story short, I gave my son an XL2 for his 21st birthday, which I thought was a good thing. But it seems every comment he has on it is about something bad.

Need another son? I turn 40 something soon and promise I won't say a single bad thing if you give me an XL2.

To help explain what he needs to do, we'll need to know what video editing software he is using. 24p from my XL2 shows up as 24p on the timeline as long as I set the Project properties correctly.

Pete Bauer · June 8th, 2005, 08:01 PM

Elisabeth,

To expand on Patrick's comment, your nonlinear editing (NLE) software must be 24p-aware. Older versions of most of the populars NLEs are NOT 24p aware, while new versions generally are (the company will definitely advertise it if it is). For example the older Adobe Premiere 6.5 can capture the 24p footage from the camera, but since the software isn't 24p-aware, it will be treated as 30fps (60 interlaced fields) footage in a 30fps timeline. The current version, Premiere Pro 1.5, on the other hand, is TOO 24p-aware for some peoples' tastes...24pA (2:3:3:2) footage will automatically go to a 24fps timeline no matter what.

(BTW, as an aside, Adobe designed it that way for a good reason, but a lot of folks either don't fully understand why, can't bear to lose that element of control over the capture, or both. BUT let's leave it at that so the thread doesn't get hijacked...anyone who must argue that point, please quote me in a new thread and we can talk about that)

Now, as for this 21 year old who finds only fault with his new XL2. (All of the following somewhat tongue-in-cheek) He either:
-- Has a learning curve to climb and just needs to settle down with a caffeine-free soda-pop for long evenings of reading and learning at DVinfo. All that 24p stuff -- and probably every other gripe he has -- is covered in exquisite detail.
(or)
-- He hasn't quite matriculated to adulthood from adolescence yet and needs to learn some level of appreciation. Geez, you bought him a nearly $5000 camera! His nice new XL2 appearing on DVinfo's Personal Classifieds forum would allow him that opportunity! ;-)

Our daughter is only 9...we are enjoying her pre-adolescence while it lasts!

Elisabeth James · June 8th, 2005, 09:33 PM

Peter
Enjoy every minute with your nine year old....it only gets worse ;o)
We've reached that point when, from 18 to 24, your parents become idiots and you know everything...I figure in a few years I'll be smart again....
But, geez, now I have mom guilt...he's actually a cool person and I know he's grateful..I think I'm just frustrated that he's frustrated and hasn't found the resources to answer his questions. Of course, I've recommended this website, but that pretty much dooms it to obscurity....

ANyway, enough about our soap opera.

I think he's using Final Cut Pro, and he actually seems pretty good at using it. But I was under the impression that he was refering to something that is part of the camera...is there some sort of display of a timeline somewhere on the camera itself?
Since I really am an idiot (on this topic, anyway!) I'm going to pass your comments on to him and encourage him to log on and chat himself. IT's only fair to give him equal time to complain about me, right?? Thanks again

Elisabeth James · June 8th, 2005, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick King

Need another son? I turn 40 something soon and promise I won't say a single bad thing if you give me an XL2.

To help explain what he needs to do, we'll need to know what video editing software he is using. 24p from my XL2 shows up as 24p on the timeline as long as I set the Project properties correctly.

Patrick - did I mention the manual servo lens and manfrotto tripod and video head...??

I will be taking applications for new children.......But you should probably hear his side of the story before you make up your mind.

P.S. Do you do dishes and yard work?

June 8th, 2005, 05:25 PM	#18
Elisabeth James Tourist Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3	dazed and confused OK, if Steve thought his post was naive, this should make him feel better. To make a long story short, I gave my son an XL2 for his 21st birthday, which I thought was a good thing. But it seems every comment he has on it is about something bad. The latest is in regard to using the 24 frame mode for recording. He says the thing that records the timeline ( I told you this was naive...) continues to display a 1 to 30 frame increment instead of a 1 to 24 which would coincide with the 24 frame mode. Since I doubt Canon "forgot" to consider this, I'm assuming there is some explanation or something he's missing? Does that make sense? Thanks

June 8th, 2005, 08:01 PM	#20
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Elisabeth, To expand on Patrick's comment, your nonlinear editing (NLE) software must be 24p-aware. Older versions of most of the populars NLEs are NOT 24p aware, while new versions generally are (the company will definitely advertise it if it is). For example the older Adobe Premiere 6.5 can capture the 24p footage from the camera, but since the software isn't 24p-aware, it will be treated as 30fps (60 interlaced fields) footage in a 30fps timeline. The current version, Premiere Pro 1.5, on the other hand, is TOO 24p-aware for some peoples' tastes...24pA (2:3:3:2) footage will automatically go to a 24fps timeline no matter what. (BTW, as an aside, Adobe designed it that way for a good reason, but a lot of folks either don't fully understand why, can't bear to lose that element of control over the capture, or both. BUT let's leave it at that so the thread doesn't get hijacked...anyone who must argue that point, please quote me in a new thread and we can talk about that) Now, as for this 21 year old who finds only fault with his new XL2. (All of the following somewhat tongue-in-cheek) He either: -- Has a learning curve to climb and just needs to settle down with a caffeine-free soda-pop for long evenings of reading and learning at DVinfo. All that 24p stuff -- and probably every other gripe he has -- is covered in exquisite detail. (or) -- He hasn't quite matriculated to adulthood from adolescence yet and needs to learn some level of appreciation. Geez, you bought him a nearly $5000 camera! His nice new XL2 appearing on DVinfo's Personal Classifieds forum would allow him that opportunity! ;-) Our daughter is only 9...we are enjoying her pre-adolescence while it lasts! __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

June 8th, 2005, 09:33 PM	#21
Elisabeth James Tourist Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3	thanks for the info and sympathy Peter Enjoy every minute with your nine year old....it only gets worse ;o) We've reached that point when, from 18 to 24, your parents become idiots and you know everything...I figure in a few years I'll be smart again.... But, geez, now I have mom guilt...he's actually a cool person and I know he's grateful..I think I'm just frustrated that he's frustrated and hasn't found the resources to answer his questions. Of course, I've recommended this website, but that pretty much dooms it to obscurity.... ANyway, enough about our soap opera. I think he's using Final Cut Pro, and he actually seems pretty good at using it. But I was under the impression that he was refering to something that is part of the camera...is there some sort of display of a timeline somewhere on the camera itself? Since I really am an idiot (on this topic, anyway!) I'm going to pass your comments on to him and encourage him to log on and chat himself. IT's only fair to give him equal time to complain about me, right?? Thanks again

July 28th, 2004, 09:51 AM	#16
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I saw that line in the JVC features about 60p, but I'll bet it's a misprint. Here's whate they say later on: DV Mode 16:9 Anamorphic Wide In DV mode, 16:9 Squeeze wide uses a wider view of the CCD (941 x 483 pixels) to create a full 16:9 image. This is then fit into the regular 4:3 NTSC signal to make a natural electrical anamorphic squeezed image to play back on a 16:9 TV at 60i. •_ DV Mode 4:3 Digital Wide Digital Wide's broader pixel area (941 x 646) generates a high resolution wide-angle image equivalent to a 0.7x wide conversion lens. The frame rate is 30fps output on 60i, with increased sensitivity. I seriously doubt that this camera will give us slow motion video. Granted, in the features, it does say that, but then it seems to contradict things later. Nothing I could find in the specs that says it runs at 60fps progressive or otherwise.

July 28th, 2004, 10:27 AM	#17
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	It does, I've used it. There are three different modes: "HD", "SD", and "DV". In "DV" mode it's a 4:3, 60i picture, which records in the standard DV codec. In "SD" mode it's different. It's a 16:9 picture and gets recorded at a full 60 progressive frames per second, at 720 x 480 resolution. It's recorded using an MPEG-2 codec. Then there's "HD" mode, which is 1280 x 720 at 30 progressive frames per second, again recorded using an MPEG-2 codec.