24p questions

Curtis Gwinn · December 22nd, 2004, 10:08 AM

Thanks guys...

Douglas, I will try turning off the image stabilization tonight and let y'all know if it worked.

Joseph Tran · December 23rd, 2004, 08:27 PM

I think that lag IS due to the 24P setting. The lag you're seeing is due to the film-look's aesthetics. It will naturally have more of a motion blur than shooting at 60i. That's why you want to try to shoot 24p with the same discipline as if you are shooting with film.

When you burn your footage to disc (or essentially view your footage on a regular TV), that "jumpy" look you're probably seeing in your LCD viewfinder will look like a smooth motion blur.

Travis Maynard · December 23rd, 2004, 09:49 PM

I have experienced this aswell. I haven't captured it and put it on my computer though. I really hop this is only seen on the viewfinder and appears as a motion blur on computer screens/tv screens like Joseph said.

Daniel Hollister · January 15th, 2005, 11:03 PM

my friend just shot a scene of something in 24p and another scene in 30p. he's not sure how to edit them together in final cut pro. i'm not sure what to tell him either. he wants to mix 24p and 30p footage on the same timeline. any ideas?

David Lach · January 16th, 2005, 01:05 AM

The key is to use a 29.97fps timeline. There will be a bit of artificially induced interlacing on the 24p footage due to the 3:2 pulldown but it's the best way to match 30p and 24p footage (you cannot use 30p footage on a 24p timeline unless you plan on slowing down the footage).

If the 24p footage was shot using the 3:2 mode, there's nothing else to do, FCP will recognize the footage as standard 60i DV. If however your friend shot using 24p 2:3:3:2 (which isn't a very good idea if you plan to mix it with 30p footage), then he will need to convert back the footage to 24p and then do a 3:2 pull down on it, then use that newly converted footage to mix it with the 30p. It's not that you can't do it in the 2:3:3:2 pull down mode, it's just that the 3:2 footage will look better (smoother motion) when used in a 29.97fps timeline.

All that being said, I don't think mixing 30p and 24p footage on purpose is that good of an idea, unless you're doing it for very specific reasons, one of which could be a slow motion on the 30p footage. But generally speaking, it is best to choose a frame rate and stick with it for the whole project. The obvious reasons for that being less hassle, the interlacing issue (which will be present on some frames of the 24p footage because there's a 3:2 pull down applied to it) and also the fact that 24p and 30p footage don't look quite the same, especially when it comes to motion.

David Levine · January 27th, 2005, 08:47 PM

http://www.paganweirdo.com/org.wmvx

Rename and remove the X to play

Rough footage shot in Oregon on a hazy day
But if your looking to buy a XL2 I figure all the samples you can look at may help

Pete Bauer · January 29th, 2005, 09:08 AM

David,
Thanks for sharing the beauty of Oregon and your 24p footage with us. Reminds me that I'm overdue for a vacation from smoggy, flat, traffic-clogged Houston!

Donald Pittelli · February 4th, 2005, 01:48 PM

your playing back a tape on tv useing the rca cable . you took the video in 24p .what are you seeing on your tv .i am guessing 60i .thanks dp

A. J. deLange · February 4th, 2005, 02:50 PM

That's right. It doesn't matter what mode the camera was set to during recording the playback is always 720 x 480 60i. The way in which the frames you exposed are distributed over the 59.94 playback frames per second does depend on the recording mode. That's been discussed here many times.

Chris Hurd · February 4th, 2005, 04:31 PM

It's 60i but it looks like 24p. That's the whole point. The camera head does the frame rate and the progressive scan, but the tape transport records sixty interlaced fields no matter what -- because if it didn't, then you wouldn't be able to play it back on any conventional NTSC monitor.

Donald Pittelli · February 4th, 2005, 04:46 PM

i thought it had to be 60i . the manual dose not say . heres what confused me i took some video of a machine in motion in 24p. the play back had that frame pulse look like 24p on the tv . i have yet to buy a lcd widescean . so i go to my neighbor who has hidef plasma. even though this is not hidef cam the picture shore looks good lots of detail .thanks dp

A. J. deLange · February 5th, 2005, 08:25 AM

You'll find this discussed at some length in http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=36253 I have a post in this thread which will direct you to http://homepage.mac.com/ajdel/FileSharing7.html where you can download a dv file with 60i,30p and 24p (both pulldowns) cuts of a rotating fan (be sure to set Qucktime quality to high). Stepping through these one frame at a time is very helpful in seeing how the XL2 handles these modes.

Mel Williams · February 15th, 2005, 10:39 AM

Hi all,
I've got a question regarding timecode.

I'm shooting a corporate training video with my new XL2 and my old GL1.

I would like to shoot 24p (non-drop) with my XL2 and Movie Mode Normal with my GL1.

Would this produce unsightly differences between the two cameras?

Would I have any problems in postproduction with Final Cut Pro?

Can I use my GL1 to strip all my tapes and then record at 24p with the XL2?

Any recommendations in setup when using the XL2 with the GL1?

Please help, my shoot is tomorrow.

Thanks,
Mel

Pete Bauer · February 15th, 2005, 10:59 AM

Hi Mel and welcome to DVinfo!

I don't use FCP, but have a GL2 and XL2. I think a couple of aspects might give you fits in post:
- Mixing 24p and 30p. Care to match shutter speeds might minimize how visible the frame rate differences would be. But it would seem a lot simpler to stick with 30p throughout, as I'd think most people could perceive the difference in frame rate and/or cadence of the pull-up of the 24p footage.
- Substantial difference in widescreen resolution between the two cameras, if that's what you're shooting.
- Even in narrow screen, GL1 Movie Mode is going to have a little lower resolution than the XL2's true progressive scan images. But that's probably small enough to be overcome with sharpness settings and/or in post.

All that said, there's no substitute for real-world experience. I'd encourage you to shoot short test clips (even just 10 second samples from each camera) and then share your results with the community so we all REALLY know if it is viable to mix as you've asked about.

Scot Hampton · February 26th, 2005, 12:51 PM

Hi everyone,

We've recently bought an XL2 at work and I'm having some trouble figuring out 24P Advanced footage...I've tried several tests and I just seem to be getting footage with excessive noise. I know that 24P footage is supposed to have that film look, but I feel like I'm doing something wrong, because I've taken a look at test footage on this site, which seems to be a lot cleaner, and I feel like I don't have my export settings in Avid set right, or my settings on the XL2 set correctly for that matter. There's just a lot of flickering in larger areas (like a wall) or in areas of detail (like a carpet) and what seems to me to be way more noise than you'd see in normal 24P footage.

Specifics:

I'm shooting in 24P Advanced (2:3:3:2), then importing into a 23.976 project in Avid Xpress pro w/Mojo. I'm exporting as a quicktime, and then importing into After Effects 6.5.

I've searched this forum extensively and found some great advice and articles. If anyone has any more specific advice, or oculd point me to a thread regarding this topic, I would greatly appreciate your comments.

Best,
Scot

December 22nd, 2004, 10:08 AM	#151
Curtis Gwinn Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York Posts: 31	Thanks guys... Douglas, I will try turning off the image stabilization tonight and let y'all know if it worked. __________________ Member of the comedy duo, The Cowboy and John. Member of comedy ensemble, Monkeydick at the UCB Theater. www.cowboyandjohn.com

January 15th, 2005, 11:03 PM	#154
Daniel Hollister Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 128	using 24p and 30p my friend just shot a scene of something in 24p and another scene in 30p. he's not sure how to edit them together in final cut pro. i'm not sure what to tell him either. he wants to mix 24p and 30p footage on the same timeline. any ideas?

January 27th, 2005, 08:47 PM	#156
David Levine New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 20	24p Footage http://www.paganweirdo.com/org.wmvx Rename and remove the X to play Rough footage shot in Oregon on a hazy day But if your looking to buy a XL2 I figure all the samples you can look at may help

January 29th, 2005, 09:08 AM	#157
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	David, Thanks for sharing the beauty of Oregon and your 24p footage with us. Reminds me that I'm overdue for a vacation from smoggy, flat, traffic-clogged Houston! __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

February 4th, 2005, 01:48 PM	#158
Donald Pittelli Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: babylon ny Posts: 53	another xl2 question your playing back a tape on tv useing the rca cable . you took the video in 24p .what are you seeing on your tv .i am guessing 60i .thanks dp __________________ dp

December 23rd, 2004, 08:27 PM	#152
Joseph Tran Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 177	I think that lag IS due to the 24P setting. The lag you're seeing is due to the film-look's aesthetics. It will naturally have more of a motion blur than shooting at 60i. That's why you want to try to shoot 24p with the same discipline as if you are shooting with film. When you burn your footage to disc (or essentially view your footage on a regular TV), that "jumpy" look you're probably seeing in your LCD viewfinder will look like a smooth motion blur.

December 23rd, 2004, 09:49 PM	#153
Travis Maynard Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chapmanville, USA Posts: 138	I have experienced this aswell. I haven't captured it and put it on my computer though. I really hop this is only seen on the viewfinder and appears as a motion blur on computer screens/tv screens like Joseph said.

January 16th, 2005, 01:05 AM	#155
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	The key is to use a 29.97fps timeline. There will be a bit of artificially induced interlacing on the 24p footage due to the 3:2 pulldown but it's the best way to match 30p and 24p footage (you cannot use 30p footage on a 24p timeline unless you plan on slowing down the footage). If the 24p footage was shot using the 3:2 mode, there's nothing else to do, FCP will recognize the footage as standard 60i DV. If however your friend shot using 24p 2:3:3:2 (which isn't a very good idea if you plan to mix it with 30p footage), then he will need to convert back the footage to 24p and then do a 3:2 pull down on it, then use that newly converted footage to mix it with the 30p. It's not that you can't do it in the 2:3:3:2 pull down mode, it's just that the 3:2 footage will look better (smoother motion) when used in a 29.97fps timeline. All that being said, I don't think mixing 30p and 24p footage on purpose is that good of an idea, unless you're doing it for very specific reasons, one of which could be a slow motion on the 30p footage. But generally speaking, it is best to choose a frame rate and stick with it for the whole project. The obvious reasons for that being less hassle, the interlacing issue (which will be present on some frames of the 24p footage because there's a 3:2 pull down applied to it) and also the fact that 24p and 30p footage don't look quite the same, especially when it comes to motion.

February 4th, 2005, 02:50 PM	#159
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	That's right. It doesn't matter what mode the camera was set to during recording the playback is always 720 x 480 60i. The way in which the frames you exposed are distributed over the 59.94 playback frames per second does depend on the recording mode. That's been discussed here many times.

February 4th, 2005, 04:31 PM	#160
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	It's 60i but it looks like 24p. That's the whole point. The camera head does the frame rate and the progressive scan, but the tape transport records sixty interlaced fields no matter what -- because if it didn't, then you wouldn't be able to play it back on any conventional NTSC monitor. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 4th, 2005, 04:46 PM	#161
Donald Pittelli Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: babylon ny Posts: 53	thanks Mr deLange and Mr Hurd i thought it had to be 60i . the manual dose not say . heres what confused me i took some video of a machine in motion in 24p. the play back had that frame pulse look like 24p on the tv . i have yet to buy a lcd widescean . so i go to my neighbor who has hidef plasma. even though this is not hidef cam the picture shore looks good lots of detail .thanks dp __________________ dp

February 5th, 2005, 08:25 AM	#162
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	You'll find this discussed at some length in http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=36253 I have a post in this thread which will direct you to http://homepage.mac.com/ajdel/FileSharing7.html where you can download a dv file with 60i,30p and 24p (both pulldowns) cuts of a rotating fan (be sure to set Qucktime quality to high). Stepping through these one frame at a time is very helpful in seeing how the XL2 handles these modes.

February 15th, 2005, 10:39 AM	#163
Mel Williams Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 34	timecode question - 24p in XL2, Movie Mode Normal in GL1? Hi all, I've got a question regarding timecode. I'm shooting a corporate training video with my new XL2 and my old GL1. I would like to shoot 24p (non-drop) with my XL2 and Movie Mode Normal with my GL1. Would this produce unsightly differences between the two cameras? Would I have any problems in postproduction with Final Cut Pro? Can I use my GL1 to strip all my tapes and then record at 24p with the XL2? Any recommendations in setup when using the XL2 with the GL1? Please help, my shoot is tomorrow. Thanks, Mel __________________ Mel Williams

February 15th, 2005, 10:59 AM	#164
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Hi Mel and welcome to DVinfo! I don't use FCP, but have a GL2 and XL2. I think a couple of aspects might give you fits in post: - Mixing 24p and 30p. Care to match shutter speeds might minimize how visible the frame rate differences would be. But it would seem a lot simpler to stick with 30p throughout, as I'd think most people could perceive the difference in frame rate and/or cadence of the pull-up of the 24p footage. - Substantial difference in widescreen resolution between the two cameras, if that's what you're shooting. - Even in narrow screen, GL1 Movie Mode is going to have a little lower resolution than the XL2's true progressive scan images. But that's probably small enough to be overcome with sharpness settings and/or in post. All that said, there's no substitute for real-world experience. I'd encourage you to shoot short test clips (even just 10 second samples from each camera) and then share your results with the community so we all REALLY know if it is viable to mix as you've asked about. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

February 26th, 2005, 12:51 PM	#165
Scot Hampton Tourist Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4	24P Advanced & Camera Settings Hi everyone, We've recently bought an XL2 at work and I'm having some trouble figuring out 24P Advanced footage...I've tried several tests and I just seem to be getting footage with excessive noise. I know that 24P footage is supposed to have that film look, but I feel like I'm doing something wrong, because I've taken a look at test footage on this site, which seems to be a lot cleaner, and I feel like I don't have my export settings in Avid set right, or my settings on the XL2 set correctly for that matter. There's just a lot of flickering in larger areas (like a wall) or in areas of detail (like a carpet) and what seems to me to be way more noise than you'd see in normal 24P footage. Specifics: I'm shooting in 24P Advanced (2:3:3:2), then importing into a 23.976 project in Avid Xpress pro w/Mojo. I'm exporting as a quicktime, and then importing into After Effects 6.5. I've searched this forum extensively and found some great advice and articles. If anyone has any more specific advice, or oculd point me to a thread regarding this topic, I would greatly appreciate your comments. Best, Scot