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Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders
Canon XL2 / XL1S / XL1 and GL2 / XM2 / GL1 / XM1.


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Old November 25th, 2005, 07:57 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by John DeLuca
Why get an XL2?........Have you looked at the Sony DSR-400/450ws?


John
John,

Also, I have a bunch of accessories for it already. These include the 3X wide lens, 14X manual lens, the Canon 1.6 adapter, an adapter for my Nikon lenses, and B & W viewfinder among other things like filters. And a baby brother XL1s. Oh, and the Canon is a great camera!

Mike
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Old November 25th, 2005, 08:19 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by John DeLuca
Why get an XL2?........Have you looked at the Sony DSR-400/450ws?


John
One thing is the price. The XL2 at B & H $3999. the Sony is like $9,000. and it's only 4:3.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 08:21 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch
I love it so far. Have not had much time with it, because of being sick and Thanksgiving. Shot a few things at different settings and ready to burn to DVD and see how it looks on my TV.

It is front heavy, but man it feels cool! I have two XL1s's and there is a very different feel to the XL2. Not just the weight but the doors and tape transport and all just seem to be more robust and solid. It just feels more prefessional maybe.

The only thing I have noticed so far that does not seem right, is that the lens seems to take longer to focus. I will have to play with it and see if it is just me, or maybe it needs to break-in. I have another 20X lens and I'll put that on too and see if it is faster. I know, I should be in manual anyway, and I will be much of the time. Just want to see that the lens does not have a problem.

Really glad I got it! I'm going to have fun.

Mike
I've been looking at these again. I want the 16:9 and the price has dropped.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 08:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman
One thing is the price. The XL2 at B & H $3999. the Sony is like $9,000. and it's only 4:3.
Absolutely on the price, was free shipping too, and I wanted the 16x9!

Mike
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Old November 25th, 2005, 11:14 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Eric Brown
Because he wants 24p. Plus this camera costs twice as much as the XL2. If he had money to burn, needed DVCAM rez and was doing strictly news gathering/sports/weddings, etc, then maybe. Barely maybe, actually.

Eric,


The DSR-400/450ws does 24p, 30p, and 60i with 4:3/16:9. Think of it as an XL2 on steroids. Honestly, if your doing professional work the 400/450ws would be paid for within a few jobs. You could always rent it and see if it works for you. I personally think the 400/450ws would be a great addition to a 170 in the professional world. XL2=prosumer, DSR400/450ws=professional..... enough said.

John
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Old November 25th, 2005, 12:06 PM   #21
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I just saw it doing 4:3. But maybe I was looking at the wrong camera. A lot of pro's use the XL1's and the XL2's. But a extra $4,000 isn't small change.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 01:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman
I just saw it doing 4:3. But maybe I was looking at the wrong camera. A lot of pro's use the XL1's and the XL2's. But a extra $4,000 isn't small change.

I was aware of the 16:9 but not the 24p. I wasn't aware there were so many different ideations of this camera (B&H website). Still, have to agree with Bob and repeat myself on the price issue. Which is always an issue with most of us.
And although the Sony resolves higher in image quality, the XL2 more than gets the job done for half the price.
And the whole "pro-sumer" camera / "professional" camera thing doesn't mean too much to me when the two cameras are reasonably close in performance. (meaning we're not comparing Opturas and Varicams, here).
I've seen horrible content delivered with cameras "superior" to either of the aforementioned cameras and great stuff made on cheaper cameras.
The bottom line is if he is skilled at what he does and can shoot and or tell the stories he wants with the XL2 then he should.
Spending $4,00.00 more on a video camera is not going to theoretically make his projects any better.
Cameras are awesome nowadays but they still need filmmakers/videographers to make them shine.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 04:27 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by John DeLuca
The DSR-400/450ws does 24p, 30p, and 60i with 4:3/16:9.
John you can't group the DSR-400 and 450 together. The DSR-400 has native 4:3 CCDs and does NOT shoot progressive.

Yes, the DSR-450 is a beautiful camera, but add a decent lens, batteries etc and you're looking at a kit that costs five times the price of an XL2.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 06:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by John DeLuca
Eric,


The DSR-400/450ws does 24p, 30p, and 60i with 4:3/16:9. Think of it as an XL2 on steroids. Honestly, if your doing professional work the 400/450ws would be paid for within a few jobs. You could always rent it and see if it works for you. I personally think the 400/450ws would be a great addition to a 170 in the professional world. XL2=prosumer, DSR400/450ws=professional..... enough said.

John
John,

While I value your opinion immensely, and I want to hear all that you have to say, this is clearly a case of misplaced brand-loyalty. Do you own the Sony camera you are promoting? Personally I could not afford it and I am not a professional who can make it right back, and if I was, why not go to an even higher priced camera? Another few months and I could own a varicam or something!

Just so you know, we are all susceptible to becoming loyal. I have done it before, and will readily admit to it, but my misplaced loyalties tend to lean towards people more than brands. But, this is not the case here. I have enjoyed my XL1sís and this is just a very logical step for me. The XL2 is a fantastic camera, hands down period! Plus, like I have mentioned here before, I have many many accessories for it already, which I certainly could not afford to aquire for the Sony.

I am a Sony fan by the way, and have many Sony products right now including a new 50ď Grand Wega, (Vega) HDTV and great little Sony DVD player that I just purchased and love. I have a JVC Hidef camera, and wish I could trade it for a Sony Hidef! I am old enough to have owned almost every brand there is or has been. My first VCR was a JVC, with a wired remote!!!!!!!!

For your own good, and I mean this very sincerely, try to stay away from getting locked into brand loyalty. It limits your possibilities soooooo much.

Best of luck to you John,

Mike
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:08 AM   #25
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My point was the original poster already has a decent prosumer camera......I can see getting another 170 if he already has one, but why get a different brand in the same 1/3" class? The 400/450ws is a very smart buy/rent for a camera in the 2/3" class(value wise). Cameras in the 1/3" class are synonymous with no/low budget projects.

I agree that the 400 or 450ws is alot more than the XL2, BUT it's production value also commands a premium. I shoot 30sec commercials in the $6800 range! Try renting it for a day and see how it feels....no need to buy before you try.

John
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:26 AM   #26
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John,

I have a quick question for you regarding the Sony. Is the post-production work-flow still the same as it would be with the XL2? Same costs, same equipment, same programs, etc?

I don't want to give up my XL2 or anything like that, but am just wondering. As if it is the same, I would be more likely to look at a camera like a 400 over a HDV/HD camera like a Canon H1 or Panasonic HVX200 when I make my next purchase (whenever that might be).
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:36 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch
John,

While I value your opinion immensely, and I want to hear all that you have to say, this is clearly a case of misplaced brand-loyalty. Do you own the Sony camera you are promoting? Personally I could not afford it and I am not a professional who can make it right back, and if I was, why not go to an even higher priced camera? Another few months and I could own a varicam or something!

Just so you know, we are all susceptible to becoming loyal. I have done it before, and will readily admit to it, but my misplaced loyalties tend to lean towards people more than brands. But, this is not the case here. I have enjoyed my XL1sís and this is just a very logical step for me. The XL2 is a fantastic camera, hands down period! Plus, like I have mentioned here before, I have many many accessories for it already, which I certainly could not afford to aquire for the Sony.

I am a Sony fan by the way, and have many Sony products right now including a new 50ď Grand Wega, (Vega) HDTV and great little Sony DVD player that I just purchased and love. I have a JVC Hidef camera, and wish I could trade it for a Sony Hidef! I am old enough to have owned almost every brand there is or has been. My first VCR was a JVC, with a wired remote!!!!!!!!

For your own good, and I mean this very sincerely, try to stay away from getting locked into brand loyalty. It limits your possibilities soooooo much.

Best of luck to you John,

Mike


Unfortunately canon doesnt make professional level video equipment. The new HD camera they have out now is still prosumer HD. To say the XL2 has compairable images to the 400/450ws is like saying the coolpix camera is compairable to the D2X. The difference is like night and day, especially when all other aspects of production are done right. I dont intend to argue about this subject, but I do like intelligent debate. That is what this board is for.

John
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:55 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Derek West
John,

I have a quick question for you regarding the Sony. Is the post-production work-flow still the same as it would be with the XL2? Same costs, same equipment, same programs, etc?

I don't want to give up my XL2 or anything like that, but am just wondering. As if it is the same, I would be more likely to look at a camera like a 400 over a HDV/HD camera like a Canon H1 or Panasonic HVX200 when I make my next purchase (whenever that might be).

Derek,

The 400/450ws has IEEE-1394(firewire). Records to mini cassette tape, so you could use it with your NLE now. You could always rent a large deck if you need to. The HVX200/H1 are great for people that like shooting HD video, but don't pay bills with it. If your shooting HD for a living, you rent a real HD camera(HDCAM)...atleast until the technology gets up to speed.


John
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:24 AM   #29
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Thanks John,

That's good to know. So, if I shot 1 hour of footage with an XL2 and set up a Sony DSR-400 right next to it and shot the same footage for an hour as well, would each amount of captured footage take up the same amount of space on my computer? (or whatever hard drive I store the captured footage to)

As far as HD/HDV goes - I'm watching it with an interested eye, but really, all I want is a camera that's going to give me the deepest, richest and most vibrant colors. That's why I bought the XL2 after a few months of research and seeing various footage from members of this forum. I also bought the XL2 because it's "features" to "$4,000 price tag" ratio offered the most camera for the money.

If I have a bigger budget for my next camera and if I don't have to buy a bunch of other post-production equipment and giga/terabyte's of hard drive storage then I would look at the Sony DSR-400 and any others like it.

You can see by this post, that I just want the best color -
HDV vs. DVCPRO HD vs. DVCPRo 50
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=53443

I was watching The Graduate the other night and it was a good reminder of how much good color and lighting determine the overall pleasing aesthetics of a film vs. how crystal clear it is.

Last edited by Guest; November 26th, 2005 at 05:14 PM.
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Old November 27th, 2005, 01:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Derek West
So, if I shot 1 hour of footage with an XL2 and set up a Sony DSR-400 right next to it and shot the same footage for an hour as well, would each amount of captured footage take up the same amount of space on my computer? (or whatever hard drive I store the captured footage to)
Yes, about 5 minutes per gig.

You can obtain "professional" results with the Xl2, and for low budget film makers it has advantages over the DSR400 that go beyond cost - the DSR400, I'll say it again, does not have 16:9 chips, nor does it shoot progressive. So you'll gain in terms of Dynamic range, but potentially lose resolution if you are planning to distribute widescreen, 24p footage.

The 450 is a different beast, and beats the XL2 hands down: its 16:9 chips shoot progress and it has a lot of nice cine settings, but again, it's in a completely different price league. For low budget film making (esp. if you're worried about colour), you should hang about for the HVX200 from Panasonic which utlises DVCproHD codec with 4:2:2 colour sampling, and much higher resolution to boot. Remember, the DSR400/450 are limited to 4:2:0.

The real advantage of the Sonys with their big 2/3" CCDs is dynamic range and ability to shoot in low light. But 2/3" lens are not cheap, nor are the other accessories, and you'd want a DVCAM deck because only a fool would transfer the bulk of their footage from the camera over firewire, running down those expensive video heads.
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