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Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders
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Old November 27th, 2005, 10:07 AM   #31
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Thank you for the 2/3 CCD information Josh. It's going to be an interesting year to watch the DV/HDV/HD world. And I would expect that making a camera purchase a year from now will be a much more difficult decision than it was just 6 months ago, especially if you have an extra $10,000+. so I guess I'd better get to work!
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Old November 28th, 2005, 05:13 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John DeLuca
Eric,


The DSR-400/450ws does 24p, 30p, and 60i with 4:3/16:9. Think of it as an XL2 on steroids. Honestly, if your doing professional work the 400/450ws would be paid for within a few jobs. You could always rent it and see if it works for you. I personally think the 400/450ws would be a great addition to a 170 in the professional world. XL2=prosumer, DSR400/450ws=professional..... enough said.

John
Hello :-)

OK the 400 is 4:3 and won't do 24p, the 450 can do 16:9 and 24p. The large chips and great signal processing and optics make these cameras real winners for the price... fact.

And I agree that although the Canons give great picture... they can't compare to the bigger cameras like the above mentioned Sony's.

But how would you stack the 450 up against the new Canon XL-H1?

Same goes, the chips are smaller and the DSP may be of a lesser specs so the image on the Sony's will have those advantages... But HD with the higher resolution and the higher color space will alter the result.

What do you think??

And let's not consider price as an issue at this time, that's just simple math.

Thanks !!
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Old November 28th, 2005, 11:30 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Anthony Marotti
Hello :-)
What do you think??

And let's not consider price as an issue at this time, that's just simple math.

Thanks !!
It's just simple math? Where has this thread gone? We were compairing a $4,000 camera against an about a $10,000 camera at one point, now money is no object!?!?!?

OK, here's a camera for you! After all you can, "shoot 30sec commercials in the $6800 range!" You could pay it off in no time at all! It's only about twelve commercials!

http://www.fletch.com/salescat.asp?N...&ggOWReposID=3

Of course we still have people here who are complaining that weddings are being done for only $1,000. In all honestly, there are probably many people here who are doing them for much less, and damned happy to get the work.

Money is always an issue, unless you work for the government. :)

Mike
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Old November 28th, 2005, 08:28 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch
It's just simple math? Where has this thread gone? We were compairing a $4,000 camera against an about a $10,000 camera at one point, now money is no object!?!?!?

OK, here's a camera for you! After all you can, "shoot 30sec commercials in the $6800 range!" You could pay it off in no time at all! It's only about twelve commercials!

http://www.fletch.com/salescat.asp?N...&ggOWReposID=3

Of course we still have people here who are complaining that weddings are being done for only $1,000. In all honestly, there are probably many people here who are doing them for much less, and damned happy to get the work.

Money is always an issue, unless you work for the government. :)


Mike

*** Mike,
I don't understand why you convienently overlooked my advice about renting equipment. I should have expected a response like that in the XL2 section of this board. Why do you feel the need to bash other opinions when you KNOW you don't have experience with both cameras.*****


***** I would never use the 450 for a wedding(unless I was getting paid very well). The PD-170 is a better choice for that type of job.
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Old November 28th, 2005, 09:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by John DeLuca
*** Mike,
I don't understand why you convienently overlooked my advice about renting equipment. I should have expected a response like that in the XL2 section of this board. Why do you feel the need to bash other opinions when you KNOW you don't have experience with both cameras.*****


***** I would never use the 450 for a wedding(unless I was getting paid very well). The PD-170 is a better choice for that type of job.
Ok John, I give up! There is no way to explain all of this to you in a way that we will both understand. So I guess this is my last post in this thread.

Get me a rental price for the 450, for say a three day period. To the best of my knowledge I do not even have a place anywhere near me to rent it, which is probably the case with 90% of the people on this forum. If there is a place in West Palm or Miami, then it would be a minimum two days of rental time just in driving back and forth. Then, hopefully the actual shoot was only one day, so that is a three day rental. So please get me a rental price for three days for the camera and all the accessories that I may need.

Then of course I will know nothing at all about this camera that I am renting so chances are it will be an interesting time at the shoot. Does it have an easy Auto mode and where is the on switch?

Any of this making sense to you?

John, I value your opinion but your just stuck on Sony. I asked you before, do you own this camera, and if not, WHY? All of the reasons that I and others have listed here for buying the XL2, accessories, prior knowledge and such are very valid reasons to support our decisions, and you are totally ignoring them! Listen to them!

Brand or camera loyalty gets way out of hand. Please Sony, do not market a suicide pill or we will lose John, and we don't want that!!!!!!

I'm done on this thread, it is just been destroyed.

Sorry John----Mike
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Last edited by Mike Teutsch; November 29th, 2005 at 09:37 AM.
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Old November 28th, 2005, 09:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch
It's just simple math? Where has this thread gone? We were compairing a $4,000 camera against an about a $10,000 camera at one point, now money is no object!?!?!?

OK, here's a camera for you! After all you can, "shoot 30sec commercials in the $6800 range!" You could pay it off in no time at all! It's only about twelve commercials!

http://www.fletch.com/salescat.asp?N...&ggOWReposID=3

Of course we still have people here who are complaining that weddings are being done for only $1,000. In all honestly, there are probably many people here who are doing them for much less, and damned happy to get the work.

Money is always an issue, unless you work for the government. :)

Mike

Hello,

Didn't mean to start a debate, I just wanted opinions on exactly what I asked for, and without bringing money into the conversation. I understand the economics, and I believe most everyone else here does as well... so it isn't about money at all!

I wanted opinions on the comparison between the DSR-450 and the XL-H1 as to image quality. One camera has higher specs as far as chips and DSP and the other has higher resolution and color space... so how does everyone see the trade-offs, etc.
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Old November 28th, 2005, 10:08 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Anthony Marotti
Hello,

Didn't mean to start a debate, I just wanted opinions on exactly what I asked for, and without bringing money into the conversation. I understand the economics, and I believe most everyone else here does as well... so it isn't about money at all!

I wanted opinions on the comparison between the DSR-450 and the XL-H1 as to image quality. One camera has higher specs as far as chips and DSP and the other has higher resolution and color space... so how does everyone see the trade-offs, etc.
If that is all you want then I would look to the XL-H1 forum, or the DSR-400/450ws forum if it exists. Those people would know a lot more that I.

Good luck---Mike
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Old November 28th, 2005, 11:00 PM   #38
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Agreed. Sorry I let this thread wander off-track for a bit too long.

Frederic's original post asked about the XL2, to help him decide between that and the DVX100. Bickering about $10K-$16 DVCAM Sony models or the not-quite-released-yet Canon XL H1 has nothing whatever to do with his question. Please limit all posts in this thread to Frederic's original question.

If you want to politely discuss other topics, please pick the most appropriate forum and post there.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 01:31 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Pete Bauer
Agreed. Sorry I let this thread wander off-track for a bit too long.

Frederic's original post asked about the XL2, to help him decide between that and the DVX100. Bickering about $10K-$16 DVCAM Sony models or the not-quite-released-yet Canon XL H1 has nothing whatever to do with his question. Please limit all posts in this thread to Frederic's original question.

If you want to politely discuss other topics, please pick the most appropriate forum and post there.

Pete, thanks.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 10:36 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Pete Bauer
Agreed. Sorry I let this thread wander off-track for a bit too long.

Frederic's original post asked about the XL2, to help him decide between that and the DVX100. Bickering about $10K-$16 DVCAM Sony models or the not-quite-released-yet Canon XL H1 has nothing whatever to do with his question. Please limit all posts in this thread to Frederic's original question.

If you want to politely discuss other topics, please pick the most appropriate forum and post there.
Yeah! I sort of thought this was going slightly off topic. But hey, had I the money, for a DSR450, I'd probably go with 4:2:2 capable beast instead of an overgrown DV camcorder. Anyway, many thanks for your opinions on the XL2. It has helped me a lot.

I think now the last thing that bugs me about the XL2 is the unrepeatable infinite zoom and focus rings on the stock lens. Perhaps the manual lens is in order, but then I loose OIS. How have you overcome this problem? I suppose the FU1000 V/F is probably in order for more accurate focusing?
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Old November 29th, 2005, 10:50 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Frederic Segard
Yeah! I sort of thought this was going slightly off topic. But hey, had I the money, for a DSR450, I'd probably go with 4:2:2 capable beast instead of an overgrown DV camcorder.
Ironically, DVCAM is still 4:1:1 and the same compression as regular DV. All that notwithstanding, the Sony DSR series produce some beautiful video.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 01:07 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Frederic Segard
Yeah! I sort of thought this was going slightly off topic. But hey, had I the money, for a DSR450, I'd probably go with 4:2:2 capable beast instead of an overgrown DV camcorder. Anyway, many thanks for your opinions on the XL2. It has helped me a lot.

I think now the last thing that bugs me about the XL2 is the unrepeatable infinite zoom and focus rings on the stock lens. Perhaps the manual lens is in order, but then I loose OIS. How have you overcome this problem? I suppose the FU1000 V/F is probably in order for more accurate focusing?

Hey, Frederic. Yes, the manual would be nice. But after getting a good feel for the 20x on my XL2. I have no problems with it whatsoever. I can do a rack focus without problem. The infinite rings are not even an issue with me now. I don't know if you use a Wacom tablet when you use Photoshop, (if you use Photoshop) but it's kind of like using one of those for the first time.
Kind of strange feeling at first, but after repeated attempts it becomes a great tool in practiced hands.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 07:58 AM   #43
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Hey, Frederic. Yes, the manual would be nice. But after getting a good feel for the 20x on my XL2. I have no problems with it whatsoever. I can do a rack focus without problem. The infinite rings are not even an issue with me now. I don't know if you use a Wacom tablet when you use Photoshop, (if you use Photoshop) but it's kind of like using one of those for the first time.
Kind of strange feeling at first, but after repeated attempts it becomes a great tool in practiced hands.
You are right Eric, if you practice you can get good at it. The only problem then is that you can't accurately pull focus or zoom in a calibrated fashion, or use a focus puller to choreograph complicated moves. I have done it, but it takes more time and "takes", it is obviously better to just run the numbers on a manual lens.
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Old January 25th, 2006, 09:00 AM   #44
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XL2 v DSR-250

Hi,

I'm looking to buy my first camera for a documentary on horses. It sounds like the DSR450 beats the XL2, but how does the DSR-250 compare?

Thanks,
Adrienne
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Old January 25th, 2006, 11:01 PM   #45
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For sure the DSR450 beats both XL2 and DSR250. For starters, the 450 has 2/3" CCDs, and the XL2 and 250 has 1/3" CCDs. The already very old DSR-250 is nothing more then a shoulder mount PD150 with the ability to record on large DVCAM tapes.

If all you need is 60i 4:3, then you're better off with the much cheaper and smaller PD170. You'll have better low light capabilities over the 250. Of course, if you want to show off, then the DSR-250 will amaze all but the pros.

If you want 24p and/or 16x9 SD, then the XL2 is your only choice.
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