Slow Motion - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders

Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders
Canon XL2 / XL1S / XL1 and GL2 / XM2 / GL1 / XM1.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 12th, 2007, 03:06 AM   #16
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 63
Wondering if anyone can help with this....
1) Always used PPro slow motion without any problems.
2) Tried the AE approach, as detailed above....
Findings are as follows:
a) The overall frame brightness and contrast has changed from the original ( noticably slightly darker ) - hence when I import the clip back into PPro, it doesnt 'match' the surrounding clips - same background ( Church wedding )... more worrying is....
b) What I notice is a jitter on the Brides dress detail. I have monitored this in the source monitor and notice that adjacent frames are 'focussed' and 'blurred', hence creating the jitter at slo-mo speed playback.
c) Looking at the clips in the source monitor at 800% mag, I notice the same 'blockiness', hence I dont see how there can be an improvement in the slow motion effect???

I understand PPro uses blending, and AE uses some mathematical algorithm to interpolate the frames..... Just that I have the above probs and was wondering what I was doing wrong / failing to understand...... All comments welcome. Thanks.
__________________
Canon XL2, Photoshop CS2, Premiere Pro 2.0, After Effects 7.0, Encore DVD 2.0, Audition 2.0.
2x PCs both Duo-Core 3GHz, both 1GB RAM, both dual monitor. 1x Laptop, single core, 3GHz, 1GB RAM.

Last edited by Steve Burke; January 12th, 2007 at 06:24 AM.
Steve Burke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2007, 09:49 AM   #17
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 63
Just checking the manual for PPRO.....

To blend frames for smooth motion
Motion in a clip may appear jerky when you change the speed of a clip, or output to a different frame rate. Make sure that frame blending is on to create new interpolated frames that smooth the motion.
Choose Clip > Video Options > Frame Blend.

Does this mean that PPro has interpolation, as the manual suggests it 'creates new interpolated frames' ?????

Your comments are appreciated.

Thanks
__________________
Canon XL2, Photoshop CS2, Premiere Pro 2.0, After Effects 7.0, Encore DVD 2.0, Audition 2.0.
2x PCs both Duo-Core 3GHz, both 1GB RAM, both dual monitor. 1x Laptop, single core, 3GHz, 1GB RAM.
Steve Burke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2007, 05:17 PM   #18
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 261
What Premiere calls “interpolation” is really frame blending, I have no idea why Adobe decided to call frame blending “interpolation” because clearly it isn’t. The jitter you are talking about it because of the line interpolation in After Effects. Make sure that you click the check box for “Preserve Edges” in the “interpret footage” menu. This should smooth out most of your problem, but if you are still having some apply a 1 of 2 pixel vertical directional blur. You will loose a slight bit of detail but it will look loads better.
Alan James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 12th, 2007, 05:31 PM   #19
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 261
I was just watching the “Children of Men” HD trailer and I noticed that at 1:39 mins into the trailer they used an interpolation software of some kind to create a slow motion effect. Check it out and be sure to look at their feet, and remember this is a professional trailer that probably cost thousands of dollars to make, and they were as limited as us when it came to creating slow motion. So the trade offs are having a “jelly” effect (seems to describe it well) caused by frame interpolation or lose a little bit of detail by interpolating scan lines.
Alan James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2007, 12:47 PM   #20
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 49
[QUOTE=Alan James]Scott that was a good idea but its still harder to turn 24 full frames into slow motion then turning 60 half frames into 60 full frames.

Alan, I will definitely try it the way you have explained but I have a few more questions. First, I think my lack of editing and importing video plays a role in how fast I will understand all this. My editing software is FCP Pro HD. Before I ran into this thread, and this may sound a bit redundant, to make scenes in slow motion I would do the following: Shoot in 24p with the shutter boosted up a bit, import it into FCP and just slow the scene down 20-50%. My question is what are the pros and cons to this method and also do things change a bit because I am using FCP?
__________________
S. di Lalla

http://www.choppertown.net
Scott Di Lalla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2007, 02:54 PM   #21
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 261
FCP uses frame interpolation just like Ppro. When comparing these two methods the only pros I can come up with is that there is no lose in detail in the frames that were actually recorded. The cons outweigh the cons of line interpolation however. Slowing down a clip 50% means two frames have to be blended in order to create a new frame. I have attached an example of an exploding brick wall I made then slowed down with frame blending. Frame 1 is a real frame. Frame 2 is made by blending frame 1 and 3 together, you will notice that there are 2 times as many bricks in it then the others and they are opaque. And Frame 3 is a real frame. Basically Frame 1 and 3 exist in frame 2 but are at 50% opacity.This is the drawback for using frame blending. If I were to have done this the 60i to 60p to 24p way it would have only slightly lost vertical detail, and with the XL2 when you shoot progressively its recommended you turn vertical detail to low anyways, so it would match up great.

One other thing. This works best in After Effects 7 becuase the line interpolation software is better. If you are using an older version on After Effects it wont work as well. One way to improve footage is to just put a larger vertical directional blur on it. This will reduce the flicker effect.
Attached Thumbnails
Slow Motion-frame-blending.jpg  
Alan James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2007, 10:18 PM   #22
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Houston/Austin
Posts: 394
Does anyone have any video samples of the slow motion method Alan has described. I'm curious how it would look compared to some 16mm footage shot at 64 fps.
Adam Bray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2007, 03:24 AM   #23
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 261
Well I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty that if the 16mm is exposed and developed correctly will look better. No doubt about it. I can’t comment on HOW much better it will look being that I don’t know if you are scanning it digitally then outputting from a digital source or making an optical print but it will be a noticeable difference. It will look better mostly because 16mm has higher “resolution” higher latitude and every frame originated from a progressive source. Again it depends on how the 16mm was shot, best shot 16mm at 64fps will look better then the XL2 shooting at 60i converted to 60p.

The celluloid vs. digital discussion is probably best left for another thread, but if anyone wants to further discuss how it pertains to slow motion I would request that we refer to 16mm and 35mm as “celluloid” not “film”. This is a point I have been trying to press amongst my friends and a habit I am trying to get into. A film is the final product not the material. Celluloid and digital (hard drive or tape) are both materials we used to make film. Thanx.
Alan James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2007, 02:49 PM   #24
New Boot
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Oshawa, ON, CA
Posts: 19
This might be a stupid question, but I don't have Adobe After Effects on my iMac, but I do have Motion 2. I can achieve a good smooth slow mo effect with Motion 2 like you guys are talking about with AE?

Thanks.
__________________
Canon XL-2 | Rebel XT
iMac 20" 2.0Ghz 2GB RAM 256MB VRAM 500GB HDD
Matt Throop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2007, 12:13 AM   #25
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Bray
Does anyone have any video samples of the slow motion method Alan has described. I'm curious how it would look compared to some 16mm footage shot at 64 fps.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....62&postcount=4
Che Butterfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2007, 12:45 PM   #26
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Burlingame, CA USA
Posts: 285
I've read somewhere that this technique (60i -> 24p) can be done solely with Final Cut Studio tools (specifically using Cinema Tools to conform 60i to 24p). Does anybody have any thoughts. I'd love to add that kind of thing to my arsenal. I love smooth slo-mo, and it's so bloody hard to do in the digital world.
__________________
me@facebook: http://facebook.com/stevemallerphotography
Steve Maller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2007, 12:33 PM   #27
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Maller
I've read somewhere that this technique (60i -> 24p) can be done solely with Final Cut Studio tools (specifically using Cinema Tools to conform 60i to 24p). Does anybody have any thoughts. I'd love to add that kind of thing to my arsenal. I love smooth slo-mo, and it's so bloody hard to do in the digital world.

Yes, I am also curious about Steve's question.
__________________
S. di Lalla

http://www.choppertown.net
Scott Di Lalla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2007, 04:06 PM   #28
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 92
Alan - maybe I need to start a new thread for this... but it relates here....

I film billfish, sailfish and marlin... what you're saying is if I'm shooting in 30p.. and I want a good slo mo shot... shoot 60i at 1/60? or 1/(the percentage slower)? Is that right? Also... using PPRO... is it bad to have a 24p project with a few 30p shots rendered into them? I guess... will it all look the same given that I follow the processes correctly, AND maintain quality?

pretty convoluted... sorry. LOL
Matthew Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2007, 04:11 PM   #29
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 92
oh... the other point... my older footage is in 30p, so I've been shooting in 30p with my XL2... if I use a shutter speed of 1/300 for billfish jumps, will that have the same effect as shooting in 60i? meaning capture more of the subject? or what benefit does shooting at a really high shutter speed have... it seems to make bites, and things that happen fast a bit clearer... is this correct?
Matthew Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2007, 03:37 AM   #30
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 16
All hail Mr. James!

Hey Alan,

I´m about to go out and test your 60i to 24p trick with my XL2. I´d like to add my "voice" to the growing crowd of people.

Thanks very much for the comprehensive tutorial... and I salute your stance on filmmaking.. ie:

"A film is the final product not the material. Celluloid and digital (hard drive or tape) are both materials we used to make film."

Bravo, sir!
__________________
Donovan Cerminara
Bull By the Horns Productions
bullbythehorns@gmail.com
Donovan Cerminara is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:23 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network