Isn't it about time?

Jeff Kellam · March 30th, 2009, 03:22 PM

You might want to look at this possible Canon HD offering from the rumor mill:

link removed

Robert Sanders · March 30th, 2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

I think Canon will stick with 1/3". Sony may have upped the game to 1/2" but both Panasonic and JVC stich with 1/3" so I see no reason for Canon to abandon it. Eventually, they will go full-frame but I doubt the time is right for that. So I think bringing out one more 1/3" camera with a good manual control lens, good LCD and better ergonomics will be the best move for them at this moment. In a year or 3 - 4 they can come out with a proper full-frame camera. I do hope that they will announce something at NAB.

I agree and I disagree.

I agree that Canon could very well stick with 1/3" chips. However, Panasonic completely changed the game with the HPX300. If Canon insists on sticking with the XL form factor then they absolutely must dramatically cut the price. Because I don't know of anyone who will buy an $8000 1/3" semi-pro chainsaw when they can spend the same money on a professional form factor camera like the HPX.

I do agree that it's doubtful Canon will introduce a Full Frame HD camera right now. But if they wait 3-4 years then they might as well just close their high-end video division and call it quits. By then RED will be on to their third and fourth generation cameras and Canon won't have anything left to offer.

Just my opinion.

Robert Sanders · March 30th, 2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

You might want to look at this possible Canon HD offering from the rumor mill:

It's just a rumor. The article doesn't even mention if the rumor comes from within Canon or not. As far as I know they could've just been reading DVi and read the tea leaves no different than any of us in here do.

If the rumor is true then what size is an APC-C chip? Is it 35mm? S35mm?

Robert Sanders · March 30th, 2009, 05:13 PM

Well, I answered my own question. It appears that standard academy 35mm 4-perf motion picture film measures roughly 22mm x 16mm. Super 35mm is 24.9 x 18.7mm.

Canon's version of APS-C CMOS sensors measure roughly 22.2mm x 14.8mm.

So it's almost a direct match with 4-perf, just a little shorter. Which is fine considering that the camera would be recording a less-tall 16x9 aspect ratio.

Nick Hiltgen · March 30th, 2009, 07:53 PM

All i can say is I've been asking for this camera for years now, resigned myself to the thought that Canon doesn't care about taking over that market and bought a mark ii on friday, today I read this...

Chris Hurd · March 30th, 2009, 07:55 PM

On this site, "rumors" are strictly relegated to Area 51. I won't allow such links
elsewhere on the forum because they pollute the flow of real, solid information.

Nick Hiltgen · March 31st, 2009, 10:47 AM

While it does totally bum me out to not talk up the rumor anymore I understand and agree with chris' policy. So I will continue with our previous ideas. I wonder if canon could keep the xl series alive by releasing a 35mm CMOS cam that includes an adapter for xl series lenses that only turns on the middle 1/3 inch of the sensor. Of course they would need an absurdly high resolution sensor to pull it off something like a 21 megapixel or something. On the other hand it would probably be cheaper/faster/easier to just replace the xl mount with an ef mount. I will say it's an exciting time to be a filmmaker when cameras can do so much that our wish lists for new cams become really short!

Robert Sanders · March 31st, 2009, 02:11 PM

I agree Nick. It would be clever of Canon to make a full frame or APS-C camera that can utilize 1/3" lenses. Looking at the APS-C specs on the Rebel XTi and it's only a 15 megapixel sensor. So I don't think there's enough photosites on the chip to resolve 1080. But it might do 720.

Lenses. I'm actually hoping for an EOS mount. That way we can use Canon's complete arsenal of lenses. Also, I would like to see Canon make some dedicated lenses for the camera using the EOS mount (focusing for cinema and video rather than photography).

Workflow. What would be an ideal workflow for an APS-C or full frame camera? Obviously data. But what kind of what media? I'm assuming Canon will stick with 1080p. But I would love to see 2K capability (2048x1080). I'll assume an RGB 10-bit color space. Hopefully not 4:2:2. I really hope Canon doesn't come out with some proprietary memory card like Sony did, but rather use something more standard like CF. Would Canon even try a RAW workflow? Sounds risky, which is un-Canon like.

Mark Job · March 31st, 2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

I really hope Canon doesn't come out with some proprietary memory card like Sony did, but rather use something more standard like CF. Would Canon even try a RAW workflow? Sounds risky, which is un-Canon like.

...I hope they use SDXC cards. The spec calls for backward compatibility with SDHC and regular SD cards and capacities of 2 Tera-Bytes ! The read rates are supposed to be in the area of 104 to 300 MB per second. In my local market, CF cards are hard to find and are quite expensive.

Robert Sanders · March 31st, 2009, 04:15 PM

Interesting insight, Mark. That rumor of 60 fps at 120Hz and a data rate of 50MB/s would work well with the SDXC cards (if their throughput is indeed accurate).

Mark Job · March 31st, 2009, 04:27 PM

...Yeah. I hope the SDXC format delivers on its promises. I'm less interested in the read rate as I am in the wrire rate. I hope Canon keeps the chainsaw design concept and, plesae, please, please, please give us a decent high resolution HD viewfinder with the new camera.

Robert Sanders · March 31st, 2009, 05:04 PM

I think it's also important that any future cameras coming from Canon should not exceed $8000. That's the ceiling for most of the guys/gals looking for a camera like this.

I'd love to see Canon flip Panasonic the bird one more time (that's the evil voice in me -- sorry). The HPX300 is a beautiful machine even if its 1080/24 mode is somewhat crippled. But I think Canon has a chance of a lifetime here if they go for it. If they don't....then I might become a Panasonic customer. Or maybe The Cult of RED will finally indoctrinate me.

Mark Job · March 31st, 2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

I think it's also important that any future cameras coming from Canon should not exceed $8000. That's the ceiling for most of the guys/gals looking for a camera like this.

...Yup. I'm exactly the customer you describe ! Except your $8K US is my $10,060.1 Canadian. (Although I'm sure they'll find a way to mark it up another 2 Grand like they did with the XL H1 in Montreal) I really appreciate Canon's great optical lens quality and I'm on my second XL camera model from them with no complaints in terms of the stunning image quality we get out of our XL H1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

I'd love to see Canon flip Panasonic the bird one more time (that's the evil voice in me -- sorry). The HPX300 is a beautiful machine even if its 1080/24 mode is somewhat crippled. But I think Canon has a chance of a lifetime here if they go for it. If they don't....then I might become a Panasonic customer. Or maybe The Cult of RED will finally indoctrinate me.

...Yeah, I'm really looking at Panasonic now, since they came up with the extra timelapse features in DVC Pro 100 HD resolution in the HVX 200 *A* camera. I'm also no longer a fan of how Canon Company is run out of Canada. The customer service is very poor from the Toronto office and in Montreal the local office is run like a classical branch operation. Want something ? The Montreal office doesn't know anything - Call Toronto. There is no Canon XL Owners club in Canada and I think there should have been. Panasonic camcorders keep getting better and better and in my local market the Panasonic HVX 200 and 200 A have been 3K cheaper than the Canon XL H1A. I wasn't happy with the overall image quality of the HVX 200 vs the H1, but the HVX 200 A is now equal to the H1. I'm not sorry I paid what I did for my H1, and I like the HDV format. The HDV format has been accepted natively with my NLE (MC) and now Avid Media Composer accepts Canon native 24 F while FCP does not accept HDV at all I understand. (??) HDV has been the bane of the local digi-underground independent guerilla film maker scene in this end of Canada since 2005 and many of them are shooting on the H1 and XG A1.

Nick Hiltgen · March 31st, 2009, 08:19 PM

I'll agree with Robert, I would be fine with using CF cards (I jsut got a 16gb for 30 bucks) but honestly I'm just as fine using another type of hard drive. Though if they're going to a proprietary type of recording I'd love for it to be something like an expresscard/34 size that could write to the PCI E bus of a computer, (similar I guess to the sony, but not like the p2 of panasonic) As long as three other manufacturers besides canon make the media I think I'm happy. Honestly CF and SDHC are almost as cheap as expensive MQ tape for the same size now so if they go that route it's cool with me. I think though an SD card would be too small for me and I KNOW I'd lose at least 12 of them in the course of my shooting with this imaginary camera.

I don't know that I realy want 2k only because I've got no way to view it, I mean I suppose HD was around for a while without the ability to distribute easily to conumers but I just don't see that as something Canon is willing to invest in. (when the h1 came out there were 2 different ways to distribute HD to consumers and I think that's as cutting edge as they want to get)

I will say it would be GREAT to have an EF lens that could be used for video but I'm just as fine using primes. Now that I have the 5dm2 I will probably actually build up a collection of zeiss/nikon glass instead of canon, but the good thing about glass is it holds it's value for a while so I suppose if I have to switch over to canon to make it work with a camera I'm ok with that as well.

I think another thing that would be mandatory is some sort of intervolometer which would be simple to institute with a tapeless recording system.

I personally think it would be cool to do under and overcranking but I could see that as being limited by the sensor.

Also I humble request the mother of all viewfinders, I want twice the resolution of the fu-1000 with twice the color of the stock viewfinder. In fact I would like the equivalent of watching my iphone in landscape mode and then put a lens over it.

I don't know that HD-SDI is neccesary for monitoring I like it loads better then HDMI but that may just be me. Having the option for SD- for clients stuck in the early 2000's;) is cool too.

Floris van Eck · April 1st, 2009, 07:19 AM

The Red One may be here but the Scarlet isn't. And I don't think it will be avaible untill late 2010. So that is almost 2 years from now. So when I say that Canon can come with a full-frame camera, I think it will be somewhere in 2012.

I really don't think that you can expect companies like Canon, Sony, JVC and Panasonic to counter RED... which is rogue company. They will always be more conservative. They only need to make sure that they are not too late with their answers...

Many people will prefer an AAA brand over a small company from the US with no international service organization in place. Maybe RED will have one in a few years, but for now, they haven't. And I think it is very important to news organizations etcetera. Indie filmmaking might be a different situation.

I think Canon will eventually go with APS-C, just because they have all the lenses and a lot of experience there so it seems the most logical step.

March 30th, 2009, 03:22 PM	#16
Jeff Kellam Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 656	You might want to look at this possible Canon HD offering from the rumor mill: link removed __________________ Panasonic HMC150/Canon A1/JVC HD1/Sony Vegas 8.0c

March 30th, 2009, 05:13 PM	#19
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	Well, I answered my own question. It appears that standard academy 35mm 4-perf motion picture film measures roughly 22mm x 16mm. Super 35mm is 24.9 x 18.7mm. Canon's version of APS-C CMOS sensors measure roughly 22.2mm x 14.8mm. So it's almost a direct match with 4-perf, just a little shorter. Which is fine considering that the camera would be recording a less-tall 16x9 aspect ratio. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

March 30th, 2009, 07:53 PM	#20
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	All i can say is I've been asking for this camera for years now, resigned myself to the thought that Canon doesn't care about taking over that market and bought a mark ii on friday, today I read this... __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

March 30th, 2009, 07:55 PM	#21
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	On this site, "rumors" are strictly relegated to Area 51. I won't allow such links elsewhere on the forum because they pollute the flow of real, solid information. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 31st, 2009, 10:47 AM	#22
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	While it does totally bum me out to not talk up the rumor anymore I understand and agree with chris' policy. So I will continue with our previous ideas. I wonder if canon could keep the xl series alive by releasing a 35mm CMOS cam that includes an adapter for xl series lenses that only turns on the middle 1/3 inch of the sensor. Of course they would need an absurdly high resolution sensor to pull it off something like a 21 megapixel or something. On the other hand it would probably be cheaper/faster/easier to just replace the xl mount with an ef mount. I will say it's an exciting time to be a filmmaker when cameras can do so much that our wish lists for new cams become really short! __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome... Last edited by Nick Hiltgen; March 31st, 2009 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Idiocy

March 31st, 2009, 02:11 PM	#23
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	I agree Nick. It would be clever of Canon to make a full frame or APS-C camera that can utilize 1/3" lenses. Looking at the APS-C specs on the Rebel XTi and it's only a 15 megapixel sensor. So I don't think there's enough photosites on the chip to resolve 1080. But it might do 720. Lenses. I'm actually hoping for an EOS mount. That way we can use Canon's complete arsenal of lenses. Also, I would like to see Canon make some dedicated lenses for the camera using the EOS mount (focusing for cinema and video rather than photography). Workflow. What would be an ideal workflow for an APS-C or full frame camera? Obviously data. But what kind of what media? I'm assuming Canon will stick with 1080p. But I would love to see 2K capability (2048x1080). I'll assume an RGB 10-bit color space. Hopefully not 4:2:2. I really hope Canon doesn't come out with some proprietary memory card like Sony did, but rather use something more standard like CF. Would Canon even try a RAW workflow? Sounds risky, which is un-Canon like. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

March 31st, 2009, 04:15 PM	#25
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	Interesting insight, Mark. That rumor of 60 fps at 120Hz and a data rate of 50MB/s would work well with the SDXC cards (if their throughput is indeed accurate). __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

March 31st, 2009, 04:27 PM	#26
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	...Yeah. I hope the SDXC format delivers on its promises. I'm less interested in the read rate as I am in the wrire rate. I hope Canon keeps the chainsaw design concept and, plesae, please, please, please give us a decent high resolution HD viewfinder with the new camera.

March 31st, 2009, 05:04 PM	#27
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	I think it's also important that any future cameras coming from Canon should not exceed $8000. That's the ceiling for most of the guys/gals looking for a camera like this. I'd love to see Canon flip Panasonic the bird one more time (that's the evil voice in me -- sorry). The HPX300 is a beautiful machine even if its 1080/24 mode is somewhat crippled. But I think Canon has a chance of a lifetime here if they go for it. If they don't....then I might become a Panasonic customer. Or maybe The Cult of RED will finally indoctrinate me. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

March 31st, 2009, 08:19 PM	#29
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	I'll agree with Robert, I would be fine with using CF cards (I jsut got a 16gb for 30 bucks) but honestly I'm just as fine using another type of hard drive. Though if they're going to a proprietary type of recording I'd love for it to be something like an expresscard/34 size that could write to the PCI E bus of a computer, (similar I guess to the sony, but not like the p2 of panasonic) As long as three other manufacturers besides canon make the media I think I'm happy. Honestly CF and SDHC are almost as cheap as expensive MQ tape for the same size now so if they go that route it's cool with me. I think though an SD card would be too small for me and I KNOW I'd lose at least 12 of them in the course of my shooting with this imaginary camera. I don't know that I realy want 2k only because I've got no way to view it, I mean I suppose HD was around for a while without the ability to distribute easily to conumers but I just don't see that as something Canon is willing to invest in. (when the h1 came out there were 2 different ways to distribute HD to consumers and I think that's as cutting edge as they want to get) I will say it would be GREAT to have an EF lens that could be used for video but I'm just as fine using primes. Now that I have the 5dm2 I will probably actually build up a collection of zeiss/nikon glass instead of canon, but the good thing about glass is it holds it's value for a while so I suppose if I have to switch over to canon to make it work with a camera I'm ok with that as well. I think another thing that would be mandatory is some sort of intervolometer which would be simple to institute with a tapeless recording system. I personally think it would be cool to do under and overcranking but I could see that as being limited by the sensor. Also I humble request the mother of all viewfinders, I want twice the resolution of the fu-1000 with twice the color of the stock viewfinder. In fact I would like the equivalent of watching my iphone in landscape mode and then put a lens over it. I don't know that HD-SDI is neccesary for monitoring I like it loads better then HDMI but that may just be me. Having the option for SD- for clients stuck in the early 2000's;) is cool too. __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

April 1st, 2009, 07:19 AM	#30
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	The Red One may be here but the Scarlet isn't. And I don't think it will be avaible untill late 2010. So that is almost 2 years from now. So when I say that Canon can come with a full-frame camera, I think it will be somewhere in 2012. I really don't think that you can expect companies like Canon, Sony, JVC and Panasonic to counter RED... which is rogue company. They will always be more conservative. They only need to make sure that they are not too late with their answers... Many people will prefer an AAA brand over a small company from the US with no international service organization in place. Maybe RED will have one in a few years, but for now, they haven't. And I think it is very important to news organizations etcetera. Indie filmmaking might be a different situation. I think Canon will eventually go with APS-C, just because they have all the lenses and a lot of experience there so it seems the most logical step.