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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old April 30th, 2005, 08:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Felis
I don't know what Canon could do that already hasn't been done. Unless they could somehow stretch HDV to its limits for progressive and interlaced shooting on all modes, then they've got nuttin' except the JVC or Sony labled with a Canon logo instead.
Canon could do a lot. In his DigitalProducer.com article "JVC Clarifies ProHD Announcement: JVC's Dave Walton clears up a few misconceptions now prevalent in end-user community" (here), Charlie White quotes Walton: "There has also been some confusion regarding the intent and features of the HDV format, in part due to information published since its announcement in 2003. Therefore, we would like to make you aware of these points: The 24p mode and LPCM (Linear quantization PCM recording) record/playback capability have been part of HDV format since it was established." Up to this point, everyone has stated -- apparently erroneously -- that 24p isn't part of the HDV spec. If indeed it is, Canon could make a sub-$3,000 3-chip, 24p-capable GL3. Better still would be the inclusion of XLR jacks, manual fixed HD zoom, and (drum roll) half-inch CCD or CMOS chips. Also, higher data rates, hard-disk recording (especially for the higher data rates), and both 720p and 1080i (both with 24p).
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Old May 1st, 2005, 02:58 AM   #17
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And pigs would fly......I'm not banging on Canon, but I sincerely believe that when they do come out with a camera, it will be just like the others - nothing special. They will still have their non manual lens system, no way would they put in 1/2" chips on the GL series, they'd go with smaller than the XL series, so we might still see 1/4" jobbies on that cam. They'd probably ditch XLR's on a GL3 and save that for the XL3 that will come out a year or so later.

Sure, they could do lots, but if their past is anything to go by, they won't.

This is not meant as a troll at all. It's more of a viewpoint from someone disappointed with Canon's attitude to the video world regarding their cameras. I love competition, as it drives innovation. Given that premise, because Canon are not competitors (They follow) I don't believe they will innovate. Cameras don't seem like a big part of their market when it comes down to it.

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Old May 1st, 2005, 04:09 AM   #18
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the best move from canon would be to say in july:
Ok guys, we admit the mistake with the XL-2, so we will release in february the HDV version of the XL-2 , with HDV disk recording.

So they keep all the XL-x lovers, bring a HDV camera with removable lense (they are not so many for instance)
They just need to adapt some firewire drive (by february we will have a lot of them HDV capable as Firestore and citidisk already announced some).and redesign a bit the XL-2 (just changing the camera head in fact, since the DV transport mechanic can be the same).
I doubt they will totally forget about tape, as so many people are reluctant to disk only recording. But a camera with hardisks in cartridge instead DV tapes would be something very new.
and if they design a clever new HD lens, they can even expect to sell some to XL-2 owner who wants to get this new High quality lense on their SD camera.
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Old May 1st, 2005, 07:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Giroud Francois
a camera with hardisks in cartridge instead DV tapes would be something very new.
Ar you suggesting something like a microdrive? A format that allows you to find a point in a recording without having to rewind/forward tape would be very nice.
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Old May 1st, 2005, 11:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Koolen
And pigs would fly......I'm not banging on Canon, but I sincerely believe that when they do come out with a camera, it will be just like the others - nothing special.
I think the question was, what could they do, not what would they do. And you're basing your expectations about Canon's HD/HDV strategy on their DV track record. When the XL1 and the GL1 were released, DV was already a commodity, even in the prosumer market. I count only four HDV models on the market so far, and two are really higher-level siblings of the other two. JVC's HD100, which will arrive in a couple of months, as yet is an unknown, and Panasonic's HVX200 is still a prototype. Canon has plenty of room to distinguish their offerings.

Quote:
. . . [N]o way would they put in 1/2" chips on the GL series, they'd go with smaller than the XL series, so we might still see 1/4" jobbies on that cam.
Geez, I hope not. HD resolution on a third-inch CCD is difficult to achieve while maintaining reasonable light sensitivity. Barring a significant breakthrough in imager technology, an even smaller chip would only make matters worse. I doubt they'd want to get stuck marketing a severely handicapped product.

Last edited by Lawrence Bansbach; May 2nd, 2005 at 08:39 AM.
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Old May 1st, 2005, 12:29 PM   #21
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Well, one thing is very different at Canon now. This man showed me my first HD camera in the 1980's in Hollywood.


Larry Thorpe,

Mr.Thorpe is a veteran Sony executive ( since 1982 ) that led the companyís efforts to bring high- definition electronic cinematography to the film industry and has since joined Canon U.S.A. in 2004.

Larry Thorpe is Canonís new national marketing executive for the broadcast and communications division. Mr. Thorpe being at Canon is no accident. He has a wealth of knowledge that Canon will use and I believe this is going to lead to Canon aiming it Cannons more accurately into the battle HD acquisition technology.



Current article on the HVX200 removable Lens possibility

http://www.pbase.com/aghvx200/do_hvx...ream_of_lenses


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Old May 5th, 2005, 11:07 AM   #22
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Why leave us in the Dark

I ordered my XL2 the day i found out it was announced, I sold my XL1s camera 5 months prior. Now 7 months later NAB passes and no word from Canon ! not even anything about the SDK, I mean comeon guys. I thought the XL2 was intentionally over-engineered. SO you let NAB go by with out ever a mutter of news about the XL2

Lets face it guys, canon does not appriciate our business. We spend 5k on a camera that will be out of date in 7 months, and Canon isn't fighting or giving any reasons why people should choose the XL2 over HDV. I rent my XL2 in LA and I haven't had but like 2 rentals since the sony came out. The only thing canon has over the comp is interchangeable lenses, and that is soon enough gonna be changed. I feel that canon is losing thier grip on the market. I love my XL2 but it doesnt make sense to keep from a business standpoint, am I wrong ?

Canon why don't you love us die hard XL fans ? why do you leave us in the dark about your plans ? why can't you make something to quell our questions ? We are getting nervous and about to sell our XL2s (plural ). Is this how you treat your customers ?

I don't personally like the HDV format so far, but I go where the customer wants to go. And that looks liek the new AGX200 form panasonic.
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Old May 5th, 2005, 11:47 PM   #23
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James and everyone,

In this thread and numerous others that are found by perusing DVinfo or keywording in the search function, the same ground is covered many times, including the SDK, the fact that NAB isn't traditionally a Canon Consumer Division show, etc...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=44116 (basically the same topic as this thread, but in the XL2 forum)

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43388 (recent SDK thread)

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43306 (speculation about various cameras, including a "GL3")

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43229 (How will Canon react? - doesn't pre-announce)

...folks have been repeating the same gripes and speculations about things over which they have no control and often little or no factual information. It is no secret whatever that Canon chooses not to pre-announce their cameras, nor do they post on message boards; that's their practice. A lot of customers may not like it, but that's the way it is.

Truth is Canon DOESN'T love you. Nor does JVC, nor Panasonic, nor Sony, nor... They design and build products to sell and make a profit. They compete to create supply for our demand. Good thing, too, otherwise we'd still be painting on cave walls. They each have their own corporate culture and business models. None of them sold any of us a camera that came with a promise to feed us information on that camera's successor, or even make continued announcements about the camera after its release. Some companies choose to introduce "products" that are nothing more than concepts, others float "trial balloons" at trade shows, others introduce prototypes, others announce their product when it is ready to ship.

Our only vote in that nondemocratic process is our purchase of a camera (or not), and then only if we have chosen to weigh marketing strategy in our buying decision.

Of course only you can answer your question about whether or not you should keep your XL2. But if it is a business tool, I'll go out on a limb and say that love of the camera shouldn't enter into that decision. What matters is whether it is the best cost-to-revenue option for you at present. If something else is intentionally over-engineered better for your needs and actually available, dump the XL2 and buy that something else.

Personally, yeah, I'd like for Canon to be more communicative. But I accept that each corporation does things its way. When there is a convergence of actual availability of the Next Great Camera (NGC) and a strong enough desire on my part for its mix of features, then I'll sell the XL2 and buy the "NGC." I openly speculate that Canon isn't sitting on its collective backside watching the world pass it by, so my "NGC" may well be a Canon product -- whether I know what they're up to right now or not. And if they're lurking on DVinfo, they know I'd be very happy for that to come to pass. If someone does trump them when I'm looking to buy, it'll be someone else's "NGC." And if they're lurking, they'll know that, too.

This is Area 51...so let's come up with new speculation rather than old, rehashed gripes!

My speculation: Canon will reserve HDV for the consumer market and release a model or two by year's end. Just before the Panasonic HVX200 starts shipping, Canon will announce something with a codec better than HDV that will compete head-to-head with the Panny. This new Canon will thus start to ship shortly after the HVX200 does.
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Old May 6th, 2005, 01:00 AM   #24
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Perfectly said Pete.......

well, except for the part about Canon introducing a camera with a codec better than HDV.
:)

As far as I know, Canon has never introduced a new codec.
But, I guess there is a first time for everything though.
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Old May 6th, 2005, 01:12 AM   #25
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You wanna know what heard down a long grape vine. H.264 can be used.

I don't ------ about h.264, but is that even possible...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Caffesse
Perfectly said Pete.......

well, except for the part about Canon introducing a camera with a codec better than HDV.
:)

As far as I know, Canon has never introduced a new codec.
But, I guess there is a first time for everything though.
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Old May 6th, 2005, 07:35 AM   #26
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Yeah, Luis, it would be breaking new ground and I'd agree it is unlikely Canon would build a new codec in-house from scratch. Historically, that isn't what they do. It actually didn't even occur to me that they would create the codec themselves. Then again, as I understand it (maybe the long-time pros here can confirm if this is true?), Panasonic developed the DVCProHD codec as a gamble, and won.

My read is that Canon is sticking to its practice of quietly preparing whatever NGC it is that will go head-to-head with the competitors' pre-announced cams, and one way or another it'll have to do better than HDV to compete. Panasonic did it with their codecs; maybe Canon is ready to try its hand at codecs, too? Agreed that based on history, they're more likely to license an existing codec -- or maybe partner with a software ally to introduce a new one, rather than go it alone.

I'm not too knowledgeable about all the new codecs, but that leads into Michael's excellent point: there is an expanding plethora of existing or evolving HD codecs that would be within easy reach of a major corporation. If something like H.264 is already suited for, or can be developed into, a solid acquisition product...

Total speculation! ;-)
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Old May 6th, 2005, 12:50 PM   #27
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Peter,
I think we are looking at something different than just the next great camera, we are looking at moving into the next Format. As with any new format, the decision to purchase is also based on how it will affect your workflow. For the people that are making a living with video, planning to switch to a newer format requires time and planning. JVC and Panasonic announced their cameras in advance, so I can incorporate that into my planning. I think it is not as simple as switching from an XL2 to a DVX100 and then to a PD150 when you feel like it Ė at least until the HD wave settles as the SD did.

I think the only frustration that users have with Canon is that they have kept quiet. As you said, Canon does not LOVE you, but they donít make the cameras for themselves either. Regardless of their strategies on releasing their cameras, I think it is important for manufacturers to be in touch with their communities. Panasonic does this. I think that most people on this forum accept that Canon cannot release details of what they are developing, I am sure that most would be satisfied with Canon simply acknowledging the demand for an XL3 (or whatever) and possible announcements. To me, Canonís stance on not mentioning anything, feels like itís aimed at surprising their competition instead of satisfying the consumer, and in the end it risks leaving a bitter taste.
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Old May 6th, 2005, 01:02 PM   #28
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I think that most people on this forum accept that Canon cannot release details of what they are developing, I am sure that most would be satisfied with Canon simply acknowledging the demand for an XL3 (or whatever) and possible announcements

Dave, they have acknowledged the demand for HD, and have said that they will have five or six announcements to make in the second half of this year.

So, it sounds like they've already done what you're asking.
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Old May 6th, 2005, 03:10 PM   #29
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Dave,

I like your perspective...we all lust after an HD format, not necessarily another camera.

The XL2 is a great camera system -- not perfect maybe, but great -- and if it could shoot in a format even close to DVCProHD, I might not even be bothering to read threads about the HVX200 or even the JVC camera. I know that knowledgeable people have said the existing XL lenses won't cut it for an HD camera, but if it turned out that they were wrong and Canon put out an XL3 body that shot the equivalent of DVCProHD, I'd be first in line.

As far as Canon's tight lips, I'm like everyone else and wish they had open dialog with their customer base. But they don't. I guess they are confident that they'll sell cameras without the expense of the ongoing customer relations efforts. A gamble, perhaps, but then again, they may know what they're doing...

If, on the day I sit down to order an HVX200, I see that Canon has one-upped it, I'll take a pause -- and probably end up with the Canon. But your point is well taken, too...if I find out about the "Next Great Camera" from Canon the day AFTER I buy an HVX200, Canon loses. That's why I think Canon will announce (and ship shortly thereafter) in time to compete directly with the release of the HVX (and who knows, maybe even the JVC camera). If the Panny is shipping and Canon hasn't been heard from, you'll be able to stick a fork in Canon cuz they'll be done.

So, I read the threads and occasionally banter about it all...and at some glorious time in the not too distant future, I'll have my Next Great Camera and do some High Def shooting!
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Old May 6th, 2005, 07:33 PM   #30
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I look forward to seeing what Canon will offer. Canon has come far in a very short time. If you think about it, they never worked with professionals in video ( not considering the L1/L2 ) at the size they have with the XL series cameras. They have learned alot. Canon will do something really good. I hope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Bauer
Dave,

I like your perspective...we all lust after an HD format, not necessarily another camera.

The XL2 is a great camera system -- not perfect maybe, but great -- and if it could shoot in a format even close to DVCProHD, I might not even be bothering to read threads about the HVX200 or even the JVC camera. I know that knowledgeable people have said the existing XL lenses won't cut it for an HD camera, but if it turned out that they were wrong and Canon put out an XL3 body that shot the equivalent of DVCProHD, I'd be first in line.

As far as Canon's tight lips, I'm like everyone else and wish they had open dialog with their customer base. But they don't. I guess they are confident that they'll sell cameras without the expense of the ongoing customer relations efforts. A gamble, perhaps, but then again, they may know what they're doing...

If, on the day I sit down to order an HVX200, I see that Canon has one-upped it, I'll take a pause -- and probably end up with the Canon. But your point is well taken, too...if I find out about the "Next Great Camera" from Canon the day AFTER I buy an HVX200, Canon loses. That's why I think Canon will announce (and ship shortly thereafter) in time to compete directly with the release of the HVX (and who knows, maybe even the JVC camera). If the Panny is shipping and Canon hasn't been heard from, you'll be able to stick a fork in Canon cuz they'll be done.

So, I read the threads and occasionally banter about it all...and at some glorious time in the not too distant future, I'll have my Next Great Camera and do some High Def shooting!
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