New XL HDV shown at IBC

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Yes I agree the specs and information that's now released seems really bogus. I can't really believe it either.
We'll have to wait, I suppose...
Damn exiting :-)!

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

10k for a Canon 1/3"! HDV camera with 1080i only? That's sure bogus.

Well, hold on a minute Michael. That price point might include, if nothing else, a higher quality glass than the standard lens supplied with the HD-100. Keep in mind, JVC has an 'optional' high def lens for that camera that costs about $13,000. Still a bargain when compared to the previous costs of image acquistion at this level of resolution. But you have to keep that in perspective. A lens that costs more than twice the price of camera w/supplied lens. Would it sell the Canon camera? I don't know, but just wanted to point out that there are ways to justifiably get the cost to 10K fairly quickly. Glass being one of them.

=gb=

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Well, hold on a minute Michael. That price point might include, if nothing else, a higher quality glass than the standard lens supplied with the HD-100. Keep in mind, JVC has an 'optional' high def lens for that camera that costs about $13,000. Still a bargain when compared to the previous costs of image acquistion at this level of resolution. But you have to keep that in perspective. A lens that costs more than twice the price of camera w/supplied lens. Would it sell the Canon camera? I don't know, but just wanted to point out that there are ways to justifiably get the cost to 10K fairly quickly. Glass being one of them.

=gb=

I could see this as an alternative more expensive package. But I can't see it as the main package. They will have to have an affordable package, which will be what will sell. As JVC did. Although I know there are some who don't see it, what JVC did was actually smart. ;)
It would make no sense if they only offered a 10k option, when most people would most likely go for a cheaper option if available. Anyway you look at it, that information post on that site smells like bogus.

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

Anyway you look at it, that information post on that site smells like bogus.

Yes, I believe they might have some inaccurate, unreliable information there.;-)

[Kevin Wild]

Michael, I'm really not even sure how to respond to you. I'm not sure what level of knowledge you have regarding these different cameras, but I'll try to defend my questions as I know many people felt similarly.

**Sorry, responses are within the quotes.

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

"Only HDV? What else would you expect? HDCAM-SR?"


What prevents Canon from coming out with a new format/codec that would offer an DVCPro HD-like offering via component out? Again, my post said I was hoping for something "revolutionary" from them...not evolutionary.

"Such as?"

Do you think that HDV is the "top of the line?" It sounds like it. HVX200...check it out. Yes, it's tapeless and has it's own challenges. BUT, Panasonic is putting out a camera with a much better format/codec than HDV. This DOES NOT mean it's a better camera. But I hope you won't argue that MPG2-based HDV is technically a better format than 1080p. Please.


"And it will be (a competitor to the HVX200), just like the HD100 and even Z1."

As far as competition, I guess it will be a competitor due to market price proximity. But these are 2 VERY, VERY different cameras. I would have say "they're both fruit," but to compare an "apple to an apple" you're talking about the different HDV format cameras competing. This would be the JVC HD100, SONY Z1 and the Canon "whatever HDV comes out."



"Bellow it? From which point of view? Optics? Ergonomics? Resolution? Color space? Image control? You do realize bellow or above in this case is subjective, right?"

Yes, sort of. I would take a great shooter shooting DV over a newbie shooting HDV. Is that a subjective decision on which looks better? Yes. However, resolution is much less subjective than that. I was talking strictly about formats, not ergonomics or any of the other things that I actually like more about the Canon.


"HD tape based in this price point is impossible, unless suing some type of compression, like the HDV format does. Why do you think the HVX200 records to memory? On tape, for under $10,000 or possibly even under $30,000? Impossible on this day and age. Oh yes, you are sure dreaming. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth."

Wow, you seem angry. Yes, I'm dreaming. That was the point in stating all that!! I'm quite familiar with why Panny went tapeless and everything else you mentioned. It was not a request list and if you read some of my previous posts, you may see that I'm quite "wise" in understanding this stuff.


Honestly, this will my last reply to you. I know the mods don't like posts to go in this direction. Thanks for replying.

Kevin






Before making a request list, it’s wise to understand a little about the market realities.
Maybe in a couple of years, it will be possible to have a HD 2/3” professional shoulder camera with a non MPEG2 compression for under 10k. But for now, to dream about such thing is setting yourself up for disappointment.
Any and all HD cameras which come for under 10k now, will be full of compromises. You just need to pick the ones which you can better live with, or the camera which better suits you.

[Guy Bruner]

Yes, I believe they might have some inaccurate, unreliable information there.;-)

Greg,
I guess we'll just have to wait a couple of days to see just how inaccurate and unreliable the Camcorderinfo.com information is, won't we?

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

What prevents Canon from coming out with a new format/codec that would offer an DVCPro HD-like offering via component out? Again, my post said I was hoping for something "revolutionary" from them...not evolutionary. .

When was the last time you saw Canon developing their own format? What makes you think they could/would be willing to/ would be able to make the R&D money back on their products alone?
To hope that, is why I said it’s good to understand the realities of the industry before hoping for too much. You are just setting yourself for disappointment.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

Do you think that HDV is the "top of the line?" It sounds like it. .

Why would I think so when I mentioned HDCAM-SR?

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

HVX200...check it out. Yes, it's tapeless .

I seem to remember you asking for a tape format…

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

I'd love to be tape based. .

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

and has it's own challenges. BUT, Panasonic is putting out a camera with a much better format/codec than HDV. .

As you say, it presents it’s own challenges and have it’s own limitations.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

This DOES NOT mean it's a better camera. .

I’m glad you understand that :D

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

But I hope you won't argue that MPG2-based HDV is technically a better format than 1080p. Please. .

Why would I? But is a camera only about format?

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

As far as competition, I guess it will be a competitor due to market price proximity. But these are 2 VERY, VERY different cameras. I would have say "they're both fruit," but to compare an "apple to an apple" you're talking about the different HDV format cameras competing. This would be the JVC HD100, SONY Z1 and the Canon "whatever HDV comes out." .

Or you could see it as both are alternatives for people who wants to shoot HD for an affordable price.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

Yes, sort of. I would take a great shooter shooting DV over a newbie shooting HDV. .

Same can be said for HDV vs. DVCPROHD or even HDCAM-SR.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

Is that a subjective decision on which looks better? Yes. However, resolution is much less subjective than that. I was talking strictly about formats, not ergonomics or any of the other things that I actually like more about the Canon. .

Format is not all. How good is HDCAM-SR seen through a prosumer lens for example?

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

Wow, you seem angry. .

Actually, that was more like humour. I’m sorry emotions can’t be expressed in a message board. But anger was the last of the intentions. Really.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

Yes, I'm dreaming. That was the point in stating all that!! I'm quite familiar with why Panny went tapeless and everything else you mentioned. It was not a request list and if you read some of my previous posts, you may see that I'm quite "wise" in understanding this stuff. .

I’m glad of that.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wild

Honestly, this will my last reply to you. I know the mods don't like posts to go in this direction. Thanks for replying.

It's being a pleasure and I think it’s being a civilized discussion. I didn’t see anybody offending anyone. I don’t think disagreeing is against the rules.

[Chris Hurd]

All I ask is that the "spirited debates" and various disagreements are kept on a friendly, courteous and mutually respectful basis here. Thanks,

[Peter Moore]

About bloody time.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

It's being a pleasure and I think it’s being a civilized discussion. I didn’t see anybody offending anyone. I don’t think disagreeing is against the rules.

Michael - while this discussion is civilized, it's virtually identical to another thread where you strongly disagreed with anyone, myself specifically, for disagreeing with manufacturer's design decisions (I was and am still unhappy with the HD100 lens choice and feel JVC made a significant error in bundling it).

While neither Kevin or I are camera engineers or manufacturers, we are buyers and our feedback to manufacturers over design choices is the most important things in determining the failure of success of the a camera.

You may argue that it's unrealistic for me to want more out of the HD100 lens or Kevin to look for more than HDV for $10k, (if the camcorderinfo is lucky enough to be correct), but the fact is the truly successful, revolutionary products deliver want customers want and people have considered unrealistic or impossible in the past.

The whole DV and computer revolution has been built on this very principle. While there is no "perfect" anything, there are "revolutionary" products.

The VX1000, XL1, DVX100, CineAlta and even the HD-10U were all revolutionary products delivering what was considered unrealistic at the time. They all have flaws and compromises (some more than others), but there mark on the market is far different from many other cams there were updates, mediocre or outright failures.

The unknown info is if Canon (or for that matter the HVX200) have a "revolutionary" product in the wings. The FX1/Z1 has certainly had it's impact but I'm not sure it's revolution yet. The HD100 is too new itself.

Bottom line, there is nothing wrong for asking for more, aiming high and demanding excellence.

[Kryz Woodhouse]

I'd just like to say that putting HDV into the body of the XL2 (bogus or not) would be a nice compliment to the XL2. Giving anybody with both to share suitable equipment. I understand that Lenses might not be suited (which is a shame, but realistic) but the advantages for other accessoriries would be great.

At this moment I am hesitant to spend much on gear for my XL2 because of the looming change to HDV, however it would be a great to be able to confidentially buy gear for the XL2 that possbily will be able to transfer to a HDV XL3.

On the other hand, I am a bit disapointed because there are a few simple design features of the XL2 that could be improved. (eg, I wish the zoom on the cary handle was larger to enable smoother operation). Idealy I would like a HDV canon that retains the style and set up of the XL2, but with some areas more refined, not just copied.

Overall I am a bit disapointed with what has been yet suggested about the new HDV. I am kinda hoping that it is bogus, or at least just and indication of Canon's intended direction. My initial delight that HDV was to be as the XL2 was soon dropped when closer examination of the pics showed not even any attempt to make improvements of some of the features.

[Rob Lohman]

A bit late, unfortunately, but here are some remarks from me:

- Yes, it really was being displayed at IBC (you trust your wrangler, right?)

- Yes, it was a mockup with nothing inside

- Yes, they where not saying anything about it

- Yes, there where extra buttons on the camera. Two by the recording button on the right and two as mentioned earlier.

- There where extra input/outputs on the right side of the XLR audio connector box. Probably more audio input/outputs or perhaps component out?

The only stand Canon has on IBC is Canon Broadcast. But due to the often
requests about the XL range of cameras they decided to have them on display
in the booth as well. As indicated earlier there where two working XL2's (one
with a mattebox system in front of it) and this Canon HDV mockup.

[James Emory]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

You know, painting a camera full black doesn't make it professional.

Well Michael, here's someone who would disagree.

Black is professional thread:
www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=17308

The Best Of posts for above thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....2&postcount=11
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....3&postcount=14
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....2&postcount=19
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....6&postcount=38
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....3&postcount=39
___________________________

More great threads
www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=17710

www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=17709

To view the complete selection and get a few more laughs, just do a search on the thread starter's name. ENJOY!!!

[Ram Ganesh]

maybe its a 2/3 CCD?

otherwise the pricepoint is crazy!

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Rob Lohman

The only stand Canon has on IBC is Canon Broadcast. But due to the oftenrequests about the XL range of cameras they decided to have them on displayin the booth as well. As indicated earlier there where two working XL2's (onewith a mattebox system in front of it).

That's pretty much the same setup they had at NAB. Minus, of course, the HDV mockup. And yes, I do trust a wrangler(well, most of the time).:-)

=gb=