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-   Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-h-series-hdv-camcorders/)
-   -   Today is the day! (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-h-series-hdv-camcorders/51052-today-day.html)

Jay Gladwell September 14th, 2005 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier
Ok, so basically this camera is a Z1 with HD-SDI and a lens which comes off ?(since I wouldn't say interchangeable, because you have no other lens to chnage to) And it cost the double? What am I missing here?

Good question, Michael. Why are all the other cameras half the price? Slower computers? Cheap HD lenses?

Maybe they should have painted it brown.

Jay

Kevin Wild September 14th, 2005 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean-Philippe Archibald
There is also a (theorically) better 24p mode, 4 channels audio... But you are essentially right. That's why I asked which componnet pushed the price so high. It must be the lens...

The XL1 and XL2 have always done 4 channels of audio. Can anyone confirm that this is still the same (12bit for 4 channels) or have they changed it to where we can now get 16 bit x 4?

Kevin

Brian Wells September 14th, 2005 01:57 PM

Well. . .

First, they had to buy Sony Z1's and remove the CCD's.
Second, they had to remove the HDV cassette mechanism.
Third, they had to rip apart an XL2 and replace all the Sony parts.
Finally, they had to finish it in an automotive black lacquer and clear coat.

See, that's why it's so darned expensive!

Will Griffith September 14th, 2005 01:57 PM

yes. sdi is a big deal. going from compressed garbage to
uncompressed HD is a dream come true, even if it's limited
to studio use.

oh ya...and it's 1/6 the price of the pro models.

9k is cheap for what you get, assuming the quality is there.

Michael Maier September 14th, 2005 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver
Why would you say it's a Z1? The chips are native 1440x1080 vs. the Z1s 960x1080. It does real 24P (or so far are told, and I believe). It has SDI out, which for some is a big deal.

It's not very comparable at all to the Z1, if you ask me.

How is real 24 progressive possible from an interlaced CCD block? I'm having deja vu's of frame movie mode here.

Z-1, fixed non manual lens, 1080i with "frame movie mode", component out.
H1, removable non manual lnes, 1080i with "frame movie mode", HD-SDi out.

I know the H1 has Gnelock and other little improvents. But for the double of the price?

For me th H1 is more comparable to the Z1 than to the HD100. The only thing the HD100 and H1 has in comom is the removable lens. So far, I think the HD100 is a much better buy. If the H1 was the same price or a thousand more, maybe. But for 9K?

Jay Gladwell September 14th, 2005 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Griffith
yes. sdi is a big deal. going from compressed garbage to
uncompressed HD is a dream come true, even if it's limited
to studio use.

oh ya...and it's 1/6 the price of the pro models.

9k is cheap for what you get, assuming the quality is there.

So what good is it if the vast majority are not going to be able to use it?

Jay

Nick Hiltgen September 14th, 2005 02:04 PM

OK so uh, if the lens is really HD quality (really REALLY HD quality) it has to be at least 2k right? That would bring the body only kit down to something like 7k (recommended asking price) then one could use an ef adapter, or a P+S adapter and from there have a pretty good image, at least in theory right?

With the matrix set up AND if 24F is really as good as 24P this would be comparable to an larger format camera. IF someone can workout a firestore with HD-SDI input well... um... wow.

Might be a real fun camera to rent.

Greg Boston September 14th, 2005 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell
So what good is it if the vast majority are not going to be able to use it?

Jay

Then this camera may not be the right camera for them. This is no longer 'prosumer' stuff. I think most will base their decision on buying this camera because it DOES have uncompressed output capabilites. As someone else said, true HD uncompressed for $8999 is another price/performance breakthrough. If I was buying this camera I would either already have an HD workflow in place, or budget for the necessary capture card to make use of it. Storage space is no longer much of an issue as hard drives are getting cheaper by the minute.

-gb-

Jay Gladwell September 14th, 2005 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston
Then this camera may not be the right camera for them. This is no longer 'prosumer' stuff. I think most will base their decision on buying this camera because it DOES have uncompressed output capabilites. As someone else said, true HD uncompressed for $8999 is another price/performance breakthrough. If I was buying this camera I would either already have an HD workflow in place, or budget for the necessary capture card to make use of it. Storage space is no longer much of an issue as hard drives are getting cheaper by the minute.

-gb-

And if they had the camera tomorrow, what would they do with the uncompressed HD? Broadcast? A very, very few... maybe.

Jay

Greg Boston September 14th, 2005 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell
And if they had the camera tomorrow, what would they do with the uncompressed HD? Broadcast? A very, very few... maybe.

Jay

Many have been saying since the Sony camera came out that it makes sense to 'future proof' your work by using HD aquistion even if you only have SD delivery methods at the moment. It's like taking a high res digital still and storing it uncompressed as an archival copy, but printing out a wallet size photo from it. You can print out the poster size version later, if need be.

-gb-

Simon Wyndham September 14th, 2005 02:19 PM

This camera looks like it may well become the HDV workhorse. Looks pretty good, especially the SDI output.

But still 1/3" ccds. Yep this is a problem, not because of low light performance or any of the other usual reasons, but because of the f5 limit before you stop being able to achieve HD definition.

Alan Roberts describes the reasons here
http://forums.dvdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=35244

Nate Weaver September 14th, 2005 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier
How is real 24 progressive possible from an interlaced CCD block?

From what I know, it's possible. Interlacing has more to do with the readout process of the CCD than how it collects light.

If Chris Hurd says it's not a pile o' DSP like the Sonys, then I believe him.

Jay Gladwell September 14th, 2005 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston
Many have been saying since the Sony camera came out that it makes sense to 'future proof' your work by using HD aquistion even if you only have SD delivery methods at the moment. It's like taking a high res digital still and storing it uncompressed as an archival copy, but printing out a wallet size photo from it. You can print out the poster size version later, if need be.

-gb-

Greg, I understand your analogy, I just don't agree with the philosophy it puts forth. How many times will everything change (formats, equipment, hardward, software, etc.) before we reach that point in time where we can use it for what it is?

Jay

Mikko Wilson September 14th, 2005 02:34 PM

Well sh**, even the Genlock alone makes this a fully funtional Studio camera!

Quick lesson in pro video for those outthere who've never had the pleasure:
In the professional world all yoru camerss are syncronized so that the switcher can switch beteen them..as can any other peice of equipment in teh studio.. Those cheap video mixers that so many of us are yoused to (Panasonic, MX20/50/70, Videonics/Ofucs Mx1/pro/prodv/4, Datavideo SE8000, etc.. (the list goes on) all have a TBC in them that takes the normally out of sync camera feeds and times them up so that you can perform a switch or transition.. ..and they are almost all restricted to only 1 event at time between the A/PGM and the B/Preivew busses ... any of you who have used any of these mixers will know what I talk about ..some of them can "cut" on teh program bus, but there is that delay as teh other camera gets routed to teh Preview TBC for an instant..
Needless to say that sort of (excuse the term) Crap, doens't cut it in the pro world.
That mysticle Genlock input allows you to syncronize the camera into any production system. ..now you coudl take a couple of these cameras and use a few hundred dollar Kramer switcher to cut between them, totally cleanly...
In fact an $800 kramer 12 input switcher could cut 12 of these cameras together, the moment you hit the button! ..find that for the price anywhere else. - In pro world this is normal, but not with MiniDV cameras before..

oh yeah, and it has that HD (and possibly SD?) SDI output.. SDI is THE signal that the pro world uses to connect gear.. SDI can also carry multiple channels of audio emmbedded into the video stream.. Can you image, jsut one BNC cable to connect 2 decks together? That is what SDI is. get on any pro equipment website (and no, i don't mean B&H) ..most all the gear will have SDI.
SDI is what replaced Analog Composite and Component signals in the Professional Production chain years ago when everythign went Digital (except for transmission of course.. that's still going)
SDI is to analog signals as DV is to VHS.
this is a BIG BIG feature in this camera.

Right now a Sony (for example) basic light HD studio camera is around $77,000 ..PLUS lens.
Though the chips are a little smaller, and some of the controls are a little differnet, the XLH1 can be hot switched out for that camera!
That is VERY impressive!
As I mentioned elsewere.. you could now put together a 3-camera LIVE HD system for about $50,000 -compare that to $70k for the camera alone before.

Genlock is somethign i've been wishing for in a DV camera for YEARS.. this camera is allready lookign REALLY promising!

- Mikko

Steven Davis September 14th, 2005 02:48 PM

So what would be a good comparision for the price and current camera capability?

And I will need a vote on wether or not I ask my wife to get another job to pay for this...........................I will have to tell her your name if you vote yes. :P


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