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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old September 15th, 2005, 04:48 PM   #106
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek West
I no longer feel "brand loyal" to Canon.
Wow... Derek, I think you just pointed out what has ticked me off in this whole affair. I am, and always have been, a "loyal" person to those whom I have felt have earned my loyalty. I guess I feel that Canon has dumped me; stepped over me; ignored me--however you want to put it--as a "loyal DV user" with this camera.

Right now, if I were to buy an HD camera it would be the JVC HD100.

In my opinion, Canon has ignored the majority of those who put the XL series where it is. The H1 is not a "run-and-gun" camera. It's a studio camera.

I strongly disagree with another forum member who is of the opinion that is the HD camera to end all HD cameras. And I think Canon will suffer in the long run as a result of it.

Jay
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Old September 15th, 2005, 04:54 PM   #107
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Yeah,

Way back in my "researching days" before purchasing the XL2 the only drawback that I could see to JVC (if I was to go the HDV route) was the fact that I had never had any experience with a JVC product. And really, that's not a fair drawback, as it's not JVC's fault that I've never owned one of their products.
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Old September 15th, 2005, 05:16 PM   #108
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Canon...Raising the Bar...Over our Heads...

I agree with Derek & Jay,

I mean I love my XL2 but I don't do any studio work (not yet anyway); I was really looking forward to something HD even HDV (even though the MPEG2 sucks) that was run & gun; I suppose this could be that camera, but not at $9k! I saw the JVC at NAB and was highly impressed, heck its got a pull out screen along with a switchable color/monochrome viewfinder, interchangable fujinon manual lens..24P...etc..

For my Canon I had to dish out more cash for a good viewfinder (fu-1000), and now I don't have a color viewfinder/LCD... (hey, let's dish out more cash for a 16:9 LCD color field monitor and batteries find a place to mount the damn thing!).

I don't know JVC, and that is what scares me...but if I were buying all over again and going HDV Id take the chance and get the 6K JVC way over the XLH1 and probably the XL2 despite the cost.

Although that said, if they made a cheeper version of the XLH without all the studio crap that is supposidly so expensive and so SWEET, I'd have to consider it...That is what I was hoping for...HECK...lets not get our hopes up on any GLH series cam, their will either be NONE anytime soon, or if there is it will cost 6K and be HDV 24F if were lucky, Canon may try to fill the gap between the XL1h and the XL2 with a HDV GL cam. Canon...Raising the Bar...Over our Heads...
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Old September 15th, 2005, 05:35 PM   #109
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Ever since I decided that it was time to get a new camera over my beloved 1998 XL1 (hey, sounds like a "classic" car), I decided that my new camera would be the DVX100A but then I waited because Sony announced the HDV FX1. I changed my mind and said, "this will be my new camera", but... the Z1 was on its way so I decided to wait for it. Then JVC surprised us with the announcement of the HD100 and I said "Oh man! This is what I was looking for". But then, PANASONIC announced the P2 1080p, variable frame rate, etc. and decided that I was going to wait for Panasonic. Yesterday I learned about the XL-H1 and guess what... I was really excited about it, but then... $9000?

Hey, I can buy 3 FX1 for that price! or 3 DVX100A or 2 XL2, or 1 HD100 and a FX1. And then I started thinking and thinking and the more I think about market considerations, the price of oil going up, and the inflation of economy making people sacrifice quality vs. price, and the fact that down here nobody has ever asked me for hi definition yet... Now I think I'm back where I started: I'll keep my classic 1998 XL1 and buy either a PANASONIC DVX100A or a SONY FX1.

As you can see, I was spec driven toward the colapse of my financial stability and perhaps my company because I WAS SEDUCED BY FEATURES, BUT WHAT IS IT I REALLY NEED... WHO WILL PAY FOR IT?

I felt really sad about drawing to this conclusion because I really liked the PANASONIC HVX200, the JVC HD100 and the CANON XL H1 but one has to be responsible for everything one does - my kids need food, clothing, education, and that amount of money does make a difference in a market like mine.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 05:28 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soroush Shahrokni
bit. I must say that I, like many others was really dissapointed with Canon for giving us the SD XL2 at a time when others where offering 1080i and 720p.

Not me, I think the Xl2 was a perfectly smart development and end to the SD line.

The vast majority of work being done with cameras in the XL2 price range, and for that matter more expensive SD cameras, is for the event, documentary, regional broadcast, DVD distribution markets. In other words, most of the day to day production outside of high end film making and broadcasting.

A native 16:9, 24p camera with the image control and lens of the XL2 for under $5k was ground breaking and provides a level of quality and funcionality that just rocks for the majority of creative needs that you could ask of a camera at this and most any SD level.

SD is still today and will be for a while. Having an affordable world class way to produce for the now is what the XL2 is all about to me.

HD is becoming. If you're in a line of work that requires or can fully utilize HD production and delivery, then it's likely that a $9k XLH1 will have a similar attraction and impact.

As far as the argument about aquiring for future HD use for SD clients, I suppose it's logical, but we very rarely go back to older footage for new productions for the same client. Pretty much every porject I work on requires new aquisition, but when I'm doing work that utilizes different periods (like a recent film mixing 16:9 24p with original 1" ABC Olympic footage) the reults of mixing formats is part of the proces and style.

That said, if you're doing work that would benefit from being shot in HD or HDV, for future reuseage, then the additional cost of a $9k camera isn't much of a consideration either.

If I didn't have an XL2 then I'd probably see this as the ideal situation because it looks to be about the same lens and image and audio sophistication as the XL2 except with HDV and HD SDI quality and so could achieve the best of both worlds.

But having the XL2, I think I'm comfortable waiting for things to evolve on the HD aquisition front as it does on the HD delivery front. But if I had the need to deiver a specific HD project by the first of the year (and I may) then I'd probably grab the H1 as well.

If the XLH1 is in essence an HD XL2 then it will be pretty amazing for the money.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 05:44 PM   #111
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the XL H1 has just been created to boost XL2 sales...
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Old September 16th, 2005, 07:18 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell
I guess I feel that Canon has dumped me; stepped over me; ignored me--however you want to put it--as a "loyal DV user" with this camera.
I have absolutely no idea why you choose to feel this way. Even though I can't feel an emotional attachment to a piece of equipment or its manufacturer, I guess I can sympathize with somebody who does have that attachment... but what I don't get is how you can feel snubbed by this camera. Did you really expect them to discontinue (that is, replace) the XL2 after one short year? Canon has done you a favor... they've insured that your XL2 is still very much a viable tool for digital media creation... as Giroud points out above, if anything, XL2 sales will *increase* as a result of the XL H1 announcement.

Geez, these are just tools, and this is a practical community. DV Info Net is all about usability. I'm not trying to "sell" you anything. If you choose not to use a particular tool, that's your business, but why waste your time lamenting about it when you should be out shooting with what you've got.

This is just hardware, after all. Let's spend more time talk about what you're *doing* with it, and less time talking about what you're choosing not to do. Thanks in advance,
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Old September 16th, 2005, 07:27 PM   #113
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Chris, you are so right. Remember all the bashing when the XL-2 first came out? It ain't so much how good the equipment is, it is how good you are with the equipment. Bob
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Old September 16th, 2005, 07:29 PM   #114
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True, true, which is why I don't run out and buy the next best thing. Anymore.

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Old September 16th, 2005, 08:21 PM   #115
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If somebody chooses to whine and moan about a camera that wasn't built to their exact personal specifications, then they're certainly entitled to vent their perceived frustrations... but not in my living room, though. There are other places on the internet where you can bash things that you've had no personal experience with.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 09:22 PM   #116
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So far, from all I've been reading, this looks like a great piece of equipment for the money. I don't know why people are saying they don't want the studio stuff. I've done lots of location shooting where genlock is used, including athletic events, documentary shooting and corporate stuff. That capability can only create more sales, especially to smaller TV stations and production houses.

I hate to say this because I've always used 2/3" chip cameras, but the absolute best documentary footage I've seen came from an XL1 (or it could have been an XL1s) PAL camera. The film was a documentary titled "Death in Gaza." It was made up mostly of footage shot by that famous British documentary filmmaker whose name escapes me at the moment. He was doing a film about Palestinian children who become religious fanatics, and when that film was finished he was planning to go do the same thing on the Israeli side. He was killed by Israeli soldiers. His partner finished the film. If I hadn't seen all the still photos of him holding an XL1, I wouldn't have believed he had shot with a 1/3" chip camera. There were no blown out highlights, no bad focus, no bad hand held stuff. The guy was a real pro and knew how to use the tools he had available.

Obviously I haven't seen any footage from Canon's HDV camera yet, but I have seen quite a bit from the Z1, and I was very impressed. About 5 years or so ago my aging BVW300 was in need of yet another head job as well as a new viewfinder, for a total of about $5K in maintenance. We decided to get a new camera and convert to DVCAM at that time. If I were in that same position today, ie., if the DSR500WS was 12 years old and on its last legs, I seriously doubt if I would run out and spend the money for a 570, which would be well over $25K with a decent lens.

Just for the heck of it, we were kicking around that issue today...for instance, what might we buy in, say, 3 years. For the work we do, the DSR500 has been great. We shoot lots of 16:9, so we'd want a camera with 16:9 chips. With HDV appearing to be positioning itself as DVCAM did a few years ago (a replacement for Betacam SP) as a replacement for DVCAM/DVCPRO in the lower echelon of professional production, it's likely that we would go for HDV. The P2 won't cut it for us because we archive tapes for many years, and there's no way we'd dump our original to hard drives and consider that safe. So that leaves HDV.

And, from what I've seen of the Z1, I could live with it or something else equivalent, such as the new Canon, for most of what I shoot. The only serious thing I would really lose by going to a smaller chip camera would be depth of field control. And that is a big issue because everybody likes it when I shoot wide open and keep the depth of field shallow, especially for the doc-style interviews and things like that.

So, I thought about the P+S Technik adapter. A complete package would be around $10K or less, and I could use Nikon or Canon 35mm lenses. The adapter provides back focus. Basically, for less money than a DSR570 package would cost, I could be into the new Canon, the Sony deck, and the adapter, which would give me even better depth of field control than with a 2/3" chip camera.

A very interesting thought.

I haven't seen the Canon yet and I haven't seen the JVC. I have seen the Z1. Just based on very superficial knowledge, the Canon is starting to look to me like perhaps the best of that group.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 09:31 PM   #117
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I am a big fan of the FX1 and Z1, but as always, I'm very curious about this camera. I smell a short film coming on to use this camera with to test.

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Old September 16th, 2005, 11:33 PM   #118
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Hands down

Well I have to say hands down I think this is the going to be the best cam on the market. But the question is if this camera will meet its November deliveries or not. When we start seeing HD SDI Portable Arrays or large flash drives like the Viper and Genesis in the next few years, everyone will be switching to this cam, although it doesn't have true 24P its still the best damn alternative for the money. You guys who still want an XL2 I have one with 4 lenses 4 batteries , 2 chargers, and a bogen 501 tripod for $6000.00 for $6500.00 I have a Shotwatcher wireless video system for you as well as a few extras. ;)
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Old September 17th, 2005, 10:30 AM   #119
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[QUOTE=Bill Pryor]

So, I thought about the P+S Technik adapter. A complete package would be around $10K or less, and I could use Nikon or Canon 35mm lenses. The adapter provides back focus. Basically, for less money than a DSR570 package would cost, I could be into the new Canon, the Sony deck, and the adapter, which would give me even better depth of field control than with a 2/3" chip camera.



The P&S Mini35 (got one of the first generations) with a HD stream off of the SDI port on the Xl H1 would be something to see.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 04:19 PM   #120
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
If somebody chooses to whine and moan about a camera that wasn't built to their exact personal specifications, then they're certainly entitled to vent their perceived frustrations... but not in my living room, though. There are other places on the internet where you can bash things that you've had no personal experience with.
Then I guess I'd better leave. Don't want to rain on your living room rug. Excuse me for voice my thoughts (whine) and opinions (moan) and excuse me for not thinking like you think or feeling about everything the way you feel.

So you've built your own little community and expect everyone to march in lockstep to what you think should be. Well not me. I don't believe in no do I want to be a part of any dictatorship, real or virtual.

Jay
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