Canon XLH1 does uncompressed 1080i 4:2:2 over HD-SDI
It's official....here are some of the fine points.
* Uncompressed 1080/60i 4:2:2 HD-SDI output at 1.485 Gbps * Multi-format external HD recording to HDCAM, DVCPRO HD, etc. * Genlock input and TimeCode input /output * 20x HD L/SR OIS lens (5.4mm-108mm, f/1.6-f/3.5, 72mm fil.) * 3 x 1.67mp CCDs (native 16:9 shape), 1440 x 1080 effective * Digic DV II processor supporting 30fps & 24fps (25 fps in Europe) See the rest of the specs on Canon's new camera at this link. http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/watchdog.php regards, =gb= |
For field use, what kind of converter would we need assuming that it needs to go out via HD SDI to a harddrive. Does anyone make a field friendly converter...Miranda? Any units that do both conversion and harddrive?
Very interesting stuff. KW |
I dunno about field converters, but with the need for a component to SDI converter gone, you can record to a computer with the base Blackmagic HD card... not too shabby an investment for studio work. (Of course there's other considerations if you're keeping uncompressed...)
Also, you can run right out to a DVCPRO HD or HDCAM(SR) deck with no problems now, right? |
I suspect it will be pretty difficult to make use of the SDI output to hard drive to a portable solution. 1.4 Gbps is ~170 MBps, which is quite a bit higher than most hard disk solutions record. In the short term there will be very limited applications for this particular function.
It is a feature a lot of people were asking for though. -Steve |
And do you get the 24F option out SDI?
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Couple the HD-SDI output with the Genlock input.. and you know.. you've jsut got yourself a HD studio camera!! ...then run that remote control SW you can get and you even get CCU (ok, prize for the first person to make a hardware CCU for the software!)
- Mikko |
Quick somebody tell the boys at Rosendahl to make an HD-SDI option port on the Bonsai Drive http://bonsaidrive.com/bonsai.html
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"supports SDI option TC inserter with additional clip number display" Interesting indeed. Kevin |
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is that SDI output 8 bit, 10 bit or 12 bit?
I actually don't think the camera costs that much for what I will be doing assuming the 24f thing works great. Up until now I was going to be getting a whole new setup in January. I was planning on getting a HD100 along with a Decklink HD card and Multibridge for VFX work. $6000.00 for HD100 $3000.00 for Decklink and Multibridge. This comes to the same $9000 price tag as the XH1. The downside would have been analog noise. Now for the same price I can just add the $500 Decklink HD card and have full digital quality from the CCD block hopefully in true 10bits. Clearly the other advantage is 1080p compared to 720p. |
Thats odd SDI audio is missing from the SDI port on the camera. That will make it a little bit harder to run to a HDCAM or DVCPROHD deck.
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No audio from the XL H1 through SDI, but if you're doing double-system sound anyway, then it's not much of an issue. If you were going to take audio from the camera, then yes, this is a bit of an annoyance. |
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Isn't SDI for HD a different standard? vis http://www.frontierpost.co.uk/2005/wisdom/Glossary.pdf I suspect the Bonsai drive will need to be adapted for HD. I hope I'm wrong. |
They are taking no prisoners. They've already published the CCD block size and pixel count. Panasonic could learn a LOT from Canon on how to realease info about a new product!
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Canon in September: Here's a product announcement, with a working model, full specifications, demo footage (coming tomorrowish?), and it will be available in November. Panasonic in January: Here are some miscellaneous specs to prevent you from buying something else, and uh... it's coming... uh... fourth quarter...ish? What's cute is that the price point for this new machine is similar to a fully loaded HVX. I honestly wonder how many people who set budget asside for an HVX machine would consider switching. -Steve |
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THE HVX200 does have the advantage to easy 4:2:2 recording for bluescreen shots. Of course most bluescreen work is done in a studio environment so the SDI from the XLH1 would actually be of higher quality since it is uncompressed. While the HVX200 should also be able to do uncompressed HD video it would only be able to do this via analog component outputs. The XLH1 keeps it all digital for a very clean 4:2:2 signal.
The HVX200 still has the advantage of less compression on the run however. No matter how good of a camera the XLH1 is it still uses a 1080i form of HDV with very high compression. |
Yes, but how much less compression. Are 1.4 Gbps out the SDI port and 25 Mbps HDDV the only options? Or is DVCPRO HD at 100 Mbps also available (tape and or SDI)?
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Is the HD SDI or the SD SDI output usable or worth using after the tape has been recorded and the signal has been compressed into the 25Mbps HDV ?
Will it retain the 4:2:2 out of HDV through SDI? Is it exclusively to be used connected to an HDCAM SR deck or BETACAM deck while recording? |
No! Once it has been recorded as DV it has been downsampled to 4:1:1 (SD and HD). Furthermore, the HD has been run through MPEG temporal compression. MPEG temporal compression results in a lovely HD picture until something moves. That's why my enthusiasm is dampened. If my only options are HDDV and 1.4 Gbit SDI which I can't practically capture I'm not so enthusiastic. I like to shoot in the woods - not in a studio.
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-gb- |
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If the output was compressed to say a 50Mb/s codec first, that would work. |
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Compressing a real-time HD stream isn't as hard as you'd think - the CPUs and RAM are fast enough - you just have to pick a reasonable compromise in terms of a codec to go to... and there are some really promising candidates out there. -Steve |
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Basically you're asking for the equivalent hardware of a BlackMagic card, a high end CPU and RAM, and a dedicated hard drive... and that option is available to you - for the price of a couple P2 cards. -Steve |
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Yes it is just like P2 - a non-linear storage method, but would be cheaper and is more "present" proof. |
I forgot to mention that both SD and HD undergo spatial compression (DCT) before being written to tape. This is lossy.
I agree that something like DVCPRO HD @ 100 mbps would have made this camera the cat's meow though you'd only get 15 min on a casette (unless they allowed it to take the next size up -SWAP and $ problems there) and if they have to license this from Sony (?) that would be more $ still. |
Well, well, well, so Canon actually did what I have been whining for!
An HDSDI output on this new camera. COOL! The thing is I really wanted either 720P SDI (SMPTE 292) or 1080P@24 FPS. That said, HDSDI output is really a huge step forward in bringing a professional feature to a prosumer camera.. Now we can hook up to all kinds of decks and interfaces. Things are getting VERY interesting!!! I have lots of questions: 1) Will Canon will be able to offer 720P or 1080P@24 FPS in the near future? (Progressive minds will want to know if those HD flavors might be a firmware update in the next few months?) 2)Can this camera output standard def. SDI now? 3) Does anyone know if this camera uses 1/3" chips? 4) What's the chip set pixel count? 5) Can one use the old XL EOS adapter and Canon 35mm glass? |
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2) Yes 3) 3 x 1/3" CCDs 4) 1440x1080 effective 5) I believe so. |
Jacques, I think that your question 2 to 5 are already answered on the XLH1 watchdog's page.
http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/xlh1skinny.php The CCD block in the XL H1 utilizes three one-third inch 1.67 megapixel CCD image sensors which provide an effective target area of 1440 x 1080 pixels. The earlier EF adapter for the Canon XL series is of course fully compatible with the XL H1, and most of the Canon EOS line of 35mm still photography lenses may be used for HD, the caveat being a 7.2x multiplication factor which renders most all EOS lenses to an extreme telephoto field of view. |
Thanks for the link.
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2) for blue screen why no go one step further and extract and compress the KEY on the fly and store it as an alpha channel, say a 250 level grey scale using LZW compression, then one could compress the actual image data further without damaging the key as a seperate data stream. Either way we should start thinking outside the box: Canon have kindly presented us with a great, pre-conformed SDI stream...lets make good use of it!! We just have to take that data and make different decisions to those forced on us by the HDV standard...one that suites OUR needs. The electronics for decoding SDI is off-the-shelf, just look at cards available for computer systems..they are cheap. |
I know the cool kids aren't supposed to stoop to using things like this but dammit I haven't had to do without a flip-out screen for 10 or 15 years, I love the range of camera placement you can get from it that you can't get when the eyepiece is chained to your head. Plus I have a glidecam and... ugh... how do you Xl1 veterans do it?
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Betsy, I've talked to several companies that import those little LCD monitors that you can put on top of a camera. I asked for a Canon XL version of something like a 4" screen, native 16:9, on a rotating slide rail that would slip onto the EVF mounting channel on the camera body. So far no dice. I bet it would sell like crazy.
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I found a company that sells a mount for the EVF rail... I'll look for it and see if I can't find it again...
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Yes please, do tell! I'd love to find out who that is!
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It actually took a little looking in some other DVInfo forums for me to find out who it was... It's a company that specializes in LCD monitors, specifically 2.35/2.4:1 and 16:9 LCDs... Anyways, if you look here, you'll notice that the monitor is mounted on the XL1 where the EVF goes... I emailed them at one time and I think it was around $100-$150 for this mount by it's lonesome... of course then you need and LCD that fits the multipin connector on the XL series cams... maybe with a diagram of the pins and someone whos good with soldering you could get something that would work... Or maybe this company sells something, I dunno...
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Thanks as always Chris and Kevin, nothing's simple in this life, is it? My main worry is that 24F thing. In the past none of those frame modes has been as good as the cameramaker's claimed; let's hope this is the first exception.
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How about a Playstation Portable as an external monitor, it's a great screen, can it accept video in?
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Why does the Canon XL H1 not uncompressed 1080i 4:4:4 over HD-SDI?
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