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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old September 17th, 2005, 12:37 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Mike Marriage
DVD's were a pain in the arse to start with! Nothing was compatible. Most of the early players wouldn't play burnt DVDs, especially Sonys.
Well, I didn't know this. I was just drawing from my own experience. The first time I burned a DVD was about 2 years ago. I just put the DVD in my mac. Opened up DVD Studio Pro 2, spent about a day learning how to use it to achieve the best results and burned my first DVD.

Maybe you all have been burning DVD's for 10 years or something and I just lucked out that the technology had advanced to the point that it did by the time I was ready for it.

Last edited by Guest; September 17th, 2005 at 01:22 PM.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 12:39 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Steve Connor
In 2 years time, when my clients want their next HD presentation sequence produced and they want to use footage from the library that we are shooting today, they are going to be VERY happy that we shot it in HD.
This I agree with. We'll need B-roll for all kinds of situations. This is my main reason for (starting to) be against P2. I'd rather archive and index my tapes for whatever scenario and not have to buy hard drive after hard drive for P2 content. Steve you are right I think.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 12:43 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Derek West
Why waste all your valuable time (time that you can be making money) being a pioneer for the manufacturers with the products that WE PAY FOR.
It's not wasting your time, it's investing your time. Being a pioneer is riskier and comes with more problems, but in the long run, there's also a higher chance of getting a bigger return on your investment. The bigger opportunities tend to go to those who took the risk and thus were more prepared than the rest.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 12:59 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Michael Wisniewski
It's not wasting your time, it's investing your time. Being a pioneer is riskier and comes with more problems, but in the long run, there's also a higher chance of getting a bigger return on your investment.
Micheal,

I agree with you 100% on being a pioneer. I believe in getting the best (that I can reasonably afford) technology when I make the purchase. But I think there's a point of being too far ahead. I simply want to be able to deliver video that looks the best on-line. If Sony, Canon, JVC or Panasonic can give me a solution that can deliver HDV on the Internet that looks better than DV, I'll get it. If you look back a few pages, I was pretty excited a couple of days ago when I thought that a Sony Z1 could give me the kind of footage posted on Apple's H.264 page (shooting skills and abilities aside).

But then we found out otherwise. :(

That's one of the reasons I've been so focused on wanting to see ALL OF THIS GREAT edited footage that EVERYBODY who has HDV cameras has been getting posted in a viewable format on-line.

I want to be a pioneer as well, just not THE very first one.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 01:11 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Derek West
I want to be a pioneer as well, just not THE very first one.
Yeah I get you, it would be kinda like being the first guy to try cow's milk. Everybody looks at you weird, and you're not sure yourself what's gonna happen next.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 01:14 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Michael Wisniewski
Yeah I get you, it would be kinda like being the first guy to try cow's milk. Everybody looks at you weird, and you're not sure yourself what's gonna happen next.
LOL !!!
I was sort of thinking more like 100's of years ago when one guy was saying to another as they were standing on the shore of the Amazon River. "Those fish.... Those little tiny fish over there, they won't bite."

The first guy who jumped in left plenty of room for all the other "early adaptors" to spend time adapting other things...

things other than swimming with Piranhas.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 01:21 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek West
Your point of “Storage and Recording are the issue” is quite valid. And from what I've read on storage solutions for uncompressed SDI output (in this forum) it does not look cheap OR easy. Paying $30,000 to store uncompressed SDI does not make sense.
Well, you can store in formats like DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO HD. Those are much nicer than DV or HDV. Much easier to post, composite and SELL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek West
Finally, on "I can say where it leaves me. I still do the bulk of my work with an XL-1. Yeah- the original. Most of my clients say its beautiful. So definitely hang on to your XL-2 until SD is not an option."

That awesome. You are obviously a talented videographer and I hope you use your time to keep shooting the beautiful work that your clients appreciate instead of the headache's of a HDV workflow.
My clients expect me to deal with the headaches of HD so they can buy that product. The companies I want to sell to demand it as a MINIMUM.

That's my business.

I am sure yours is different. What do your customers want ? What do they need in the next few years ?

For example: If you do commercials for TV you have to be HD ready in the next 2 years or you are out of business.

If you shoot a commercial in SD for a small business right now, and they can't play it next year and have to produce a new one- they may be upset with you. Why didn't you tell them ? Why weren't you prepared ?

If you offer them upconversion of SD materials, it won't look very good next to the other slickly produced HD commercials. About the same effect of shooting with an industrial SVHS camera then posting in a linear suite in today's market.

If they come to you and you can say, "Oh, we shot and posted it in HD so for a {relatively small fee for minor post} we can have a true HD version ready in a week." You've won a reputation and a customer for life. Not to mention some easy future revenues.

This is a real scenario with small businesses, car dealerships for example. They shoot a commercial then reedit it for a couple of years with new stills/beauty shots of new models etc before producing a new spot.

The H1 is not the last word in <$10000 cameras. Your customers may not care about HD at all.

It isn't about the technology at all really. Its about YOUR business. Can this make you more money or not.

I think it can.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 01:28 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim
I can say where it leaves me. I still do the bulk of my work with an XL-1.
Since you're shooting "the bulk of your work with a XL1" what have you been telling all the clients "demmanding" HD?

Last edited by Guest; September 17th, 2005 at 02:44 PM.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 01:31 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim
This is a real scenario with small businesses, car dealerships for example. They shoot a commercial then reedit it for a couple of years with new stills/beauty shots of new models etc before producing a new spot.
A car dealership is not going to re-use a 2005 commercial in 2007 for more reasons than one.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 01:56 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Derek West
A car dealership is not going to re-use a 2005 commercial in 2007 for more reasons than one.
Similar things happen all the time. A company phoned me two days ago about updating a video that was shoot just a year ago.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 02:05 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Mike Marriage
Similar things happen all the time. A company phoned me two days ago about updating a video that was shoot just a year ago.
That's good. Repeat business is always the best. Even though you having the original footage that they want to update is one reason they called, they probably phoned you because they liked the results you gave them a year ago. What did you shoot it with?

and when you say update -

Update, as in adding or editing graphics?
Upadate, as in shooting new footage?
Or both?
If shooting new footage:
What are you going to shoot it with?
Is that the same camera you used to shoot the original?
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Old September 17th, 2005, 02:16 PM   #117
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Car dealership commercials

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek West
A car dealership is not going to re-use a 2005 commercial in 2007 for more reasons than one.
But they do! Collect dealership commercials for a couple of years and you'll see I am right.

Now, understand that dealerships have a better deal than most small businesses. They get plenty of B-Roll and beauty shots and other production materials from the manufacturers. They also get a promotional budget based on how many cars they sell. A budget we can tap into.

Finally they get regional advertising based on how many cars they sell direct from manufacturers, but we don't deal in that level. Not with an XL2 or an XLH1. HDCAM and 35mm only there. You may see a Mazda commerical produced and distributed by Mazda that has a local dealership name on it, but its a Mazda ad.

Still my main point is that many small businesses reuse advertisements for several years, with only minor changes.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 02:24 PM   #118
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OK, lets take one of your car dealership clients as an example:

What 2003 footage that you shot on the XL1 two years ago are you re-using in the 2005 commercial that you are doing for them today?
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Old September 17th, 2005, 02:34 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek West
Since you're shooting "the bulk of your work with a XL1" what have you been telling all the clients "demmanding" HD?
I don't know if you were referring to me, but I have shot HD, yet most of my work (weddings, small event documentaries and training videos) is done with an XL-1.

I use the XL-1 because I own it.

When I do work with HD its because the client wants HD, and I rent equipment as needed.

I see a time coming, sooner rather than later, where I'll need to own HD capable equipment. I already have a need to be ready to post HD in house in various formats. So far its just preliminary dealings but its there.

For the small stuff I do HDV is actually pretty good. You aren't doing a lot of manipulation and compositing for a wedding, and what you do need is mostly overlays and such. HDV holds up to that.

That means I can offer clients interested in that type of stuff a finished HD production. Oddly weddings have been most interested- HD is the future and people have their weddings done so they can look back in ten or twenty years. They know they don't have HD today, but they expect to.

As productions get more complex they also need to be more controlled. You can't key shots done in a run and gun fashion.

When I shoot stuff I need to key it is almost immediately a studio type shoot. The H1 can do that in uncompressed SDI for me or DVCPRO HD direct to the computer. That makes my time in Shake or AE easier. It also means I don't have to rent a camera and deck- that means more profit.

Does my business sound like yours ? If not my advice won't necessarily be useful to you.

I've said it again and again- if all you do is online distribution the XL2 is just fine. You'll be able to wait longer than most of us for HD production.
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Old September 17th, 2005, 02:36 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek West
If you look back a few pages, I was pretty excited a couple of days ago when I thought that a Sony Z1 could give me the kind of footage posted on Apple's H.264 page (shooting skills and abilities aside).

But then we found out otherwise. :(

That's one of the reasons I've been so focused on wanting to see ALL OF THIS GREAT edited footage that EVERYBODY who has HDV cameras has been getting posted in a viewable format on-line.

I want to be a pioneer as well, just not THE very first one.
It seems to me that you are focused on online distribution TODAY.

HDV doesn't deliver a huge improvement over DV for online distribution. One huge reason for that is that most people can't download or view full resolution clips.

Take another look at Apple's HD gallery. A lot of those clips are over 100MB. The Serenity HD trailer was 138 MB and requires a fairly new machine, Quicktime 7 and a high resolution display to view in its full glory.

Given all of that it looks better than a theater presentation of the trailer. Seriously.

If you want your work to look like that with you can do it- you can get Hollywood level production quality from a studio equipped with about $45000 of equipment starting from scratch built around using the HD SDI from the H1.

Your XL2 can produce results for online distribution on par with the movie trailers you can see at Apple's regular trailer page. Notice however that most of those trailers are 480x272 or smaller.

If that is really all you want to do then HDV, heck even full blown HDCAM SR is of no utility to you whatsoever. None of those cameras matter one whit considering you choice of distribution.

They still all have valid business plans attached to them.
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