Format Agnostic...but how? - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old September 16th, 2005, 01:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Green
I think the "format agnostic" thing is a bit of a misnomer. I mean, you can either call it a camcorder (meaning a camera/recorder) or just a camera head (which is a camera without any sort of recording mechanism).

If you want to call it a camcorder, then it must inherently be called an HDV camcorder, since that is all it records.

If you want to use it as a live camera head, then yes you could say it's format agnostic, but not really any more so than any other camera, since all camera heads are inherently format agnostic.

Therefore, when used in a format-agnostic application, the Canon offers the same functionality as the others (not a we-can-and-you-can't type of situation), but it does have an additional connector (HD-SDI) which the others lack; therefore it can make a theoretically better recording than the non-HD-SDI cameras could. One could always get an analog component-to-HD-SDI converter, but that wouldn't carry as clean or pure a signal as a real, straight-from-the-DSP HD-SDI connector like the Canon offers.
Exactly. Barry just nails in in the head here.
The format agnostic thing is a market gimmick in my opinion.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 01:14 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
It is format agnostic because it doesn't matter what deck you choose to record to... it could be HDCAM one day and DVCPRO HD the next. That's the advantage of uncompressed HD over HD-SDI out.

What this camera is, is two things in one. It is an HD camera head. You supply the recorder. Don't buy an HD deck; rent one as you need it. It's also an HDV camcorder, but that's a secondary thing. That's why I couldn't put this forum in our HDV section. The XL H1 is not "just an HDV camcorder." It's first and foremost an HD camera head. That feature is far more important than the HDV feature.
Well, so if JVC adds HD-SDI to the HD100(really, how much would it cost? Is just a port), that would make the HD100 a HD camera first and foremost and HDV camcorder second? I just can't see this line of reasoning. I'm sorry, but I must be dumb or something. Or I'm just not buying the marketing mambo-jambo from Canon.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 07:28 AM   #18
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The beauty of a free market economy is that you don't have to buy it, Michael.

This site is set up so that you have other forums to explore and discuss now that you've determined that the XL H1 is not for you. And that's the beauty of DV Info Net.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 10:30 AM   #19
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Actually Barry in a way it is true to call this a format agnostic camera. While other HDV cameras have uncompressed analog component output this is useless without buying a converter to be able to use it. With the XLH1 you now do not need a converter so as is out of the box you can capture live to whatever you want to. All other current HDV cameras need a 3rd party converter so the camera in itself cannot do it out of the box. While part of it might be a marketing thing it is also true that it is the only current HDV camera that can do this out of the box.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 12:44 PM   #20
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**********EDITED TO ADD*************

I just read Chris's article, and found this:
"the HD-SDI output carries uncompressed video and sync data only "

So forget everything I wrote below.... it's apparently all wrong and I jumped the gun.

WOW, that's dissapointing. For a minute I thought this was a much bigger deal.

Does the camera have XLR audio outputs?

*************************************


While I'll agree with Barry that calling this camera "format agnostic" is pretty ridiculous, I would also like to mention something that no one seems to have mentioned.

The addition of SDI on this camera is a huge deal, given that you can now output both your VIDEO and AUDIO in uncompressed form.

Sure, you could use a converter with the HVX, or with the HD100, but that would only give you the Video (from an uncompressed ANALOG source). Then what woudl you do? Run a tape in the camera and sync up in post?
I dont' think any of those cameras offer XLR outputs for audio.

If I"m reading the specs on the Canon correctly, the HDSDI output should give you both Uncompressed Video and audio. That's something that's not offerred on any other camera I can think of at that price.

Granted, I still think it's going way too far into 'marketing speak' to call it 'format agnostic' But that doesn't mean the inclusion of HDSDI output isn't a huge deal. It's an incredibly huge deal.

BUT... then there is the cost of deck rental...and tape stock... or if you're going to shoot HDV there is the cost of an HDV deck. So, the price will definitely add it. Not sure if it's worth it yet for me....I've got to see footage, but my initial reaction is that it's a really nice camera for someone else...but probably doesn't fit my needs.


OH...Shannon (Rawls).....
You were right, I was wrong - sort of.
I thought they would wait longer to release something, but you definitely called it. Though I did say, if they released an HD camera this year, it wouldn't replace the XL2, it would be a new line. And I think the price point definitely shows that they are planning on keeping the XL2 alive for a while.
But....yes, enjoy your moment in the sun....you called this one.
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Old September 16th, 2005, 11:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
I'm a big fan of the HVX200... There is no HD-SDI terminal connector on the HVX.
True, but unless there is a way for users to access that feature, then it's almost moot to discuss its' advantages. In my opinion, it's a half-baked feature today because using it would be prohibitively resource intensive. You know, a lot like how P2 is half baked and resource intensive!

The manufacturers are sending us a strong message that Spring 2006 will be a good time to buy the latest gear because they've designed it so it will last a while. They show us this by including features we can't affordably access today, but could definitely access in a couple of years. For Panasonic, it's flash cards. For Canon, it's uncompressed high definition serial digital interface.

For me, it's actually comforting to think I could get a few good years of use from any of these cameras. I feel safer buying when I believe my investment won't be outdated in six months. Both models provide enough of that "security" for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
I don't know of any portable hard disk recorders capable of taking HD-SDI out of any video camera.
Rosendahl's Bonzai drive currently does this (uncompressed 4:2:2 SD to hard drive) for standard definition SDI. Best part about it is the low price. (Roughly the same as an 80GB Firestore FS-4Pro!)

...Sure would be nice if there were an HD-SDI version for the Canon XL-H1!

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Old September 17th, 2005, 10:42 AM   #22
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I have a DSR500. There is no SDI port.
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Old September 18th, 2005, 09:55 AM   #23
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>Well, so if JVC adds HD-SDI to the HD100
>(really, how much would it cost? Is just a port),
>that would make the HD100 a HD camera first
>and foremost and HDV camcorder second?
>I just can't see this line of reasoning.

At NAB, JVC did show a test model of HD100 that had
the tape transport REMOVED and in its place was a
HD-SDI encoder that offered two HD-SDI jacks in addtion
to to the analog output. A TRUE studio model. That said,
Canon has BOTH the HD-SDI output AND a tape transport.

And no, it isn't 'just a jack' :)
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Old September 18th, 2005, 11:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau
At NAB, JVC did show a test model of HD100 that had the tape transport REMOVED and in its place was a HD-SDI encoder that offered two HD-SDI jacks in addtion to to the analog output.

I guess that means JVC will have a "Format Agnostic" camera for a few thousand cheaper than the XLH1.
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Old September 18th, 2005, 11:17 AM   #25
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Well, not to be pedantic about it, but yes, that would be completely format agnostic, because it would no longer be a camcorder. It wouldn't be able to record anything to itself, it is strictly a camera head.

The XL H1 is an HDV camcorder with an HD-SDI output port. The JVC would be a camera head with an HD-SDI output port. The existing JVC is an HDV camcorder with no HD-SDI output, just analog component.

As a camcorder, the XL H1 is not format-agnostic, it is HDV. As a camera head, it is completely format agnostic, as all camera heads are. If JVC produces a recorder-less HD1xx camera, it would fall in that same category, yes.
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Old September 18th, 2005, 11:26 AM   #26
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I guess my sarcasm didn't exactly come across.

I agree with you 500% Barry.
All this "format agnostic" talk seems to be no more than marketing double speak to me. It's almost as if no one wants to call this an HDV camera, which is essentially what it is. Yes, I admit, it has some great features for an HDV camera, and HDSDI is a huge deal... but why ignore the fact that it's an HDV camera?

Chris's own article on the camera doesn't even mention HDV:

http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/watchdog.php


When I first read it, I was a bit confused because I wasn't even sure what format the camera recorded.


Strange.
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Old September 18th, 2005, 12:00 PM   #27
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If and when JVC produces a studio model, it may not be thousands
less than the Canon. I would hope it would be, but the JVC
saleman manning the booth had no answer when questioned
about the possible price and you have NO inexpensive tape capture,
albeit in a highly compressed format.

For old XL1 owners who have invested thousands in accessories that
will still function with this new HD1 camera, like the EOS adapter and
35mm glass, the few thousand saved by purchasing JVC will turn into
many many thousands more investment for comparable glass.
The optional 'good' lens is $12K alone!!! You can buy a PS and
35mm kit for that.

Honestly, I can see why some people are complaining, but we are
all individuals with our specific situations. For me, *HD-SDI is
a major leap forward*. This signal can also be hot switched. Try that
with HDV or even analog component HD. I believe you will find
that HD-SDI has far more solutions available right now and will
be cheaper than dealing with analog HD in the future.

Someone else said that HD-SDI could be the next firewire.
I hope they are right and that other manufacturers follow Canon's
lead making HD-SDI cheap. It is already EASY, ROBUST, FAST and
FLEXIBLE.
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