Why is this forum not part of the HDV acquisition forum?
 

Just out of curiosity, are we considering this an uncompressed HD cam before an HDV one?

Yes, that's right. It is an HD camera head with an HDV tape transport attached. See http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=51053

B&H must agree...
 

... in that a search under "HDV" won't bring it up on their site...

if you go by BnH you proabbaly would be mislead in more ways then one...first the camera is listed under consumer, second there is not one mention that it records to hdv tapes rather it mentions it records to sd dv...

i find the whole "the xl-h1" is not an hdv camcorder a bit misleading...first of all if it is an hdv camcorder then it should be recognized as one, and as one of the best out there...it does say hdv on the camera right...

the word camcorder is short for "camera-recorder" basically a self contained unit made up of a camera and a cassette recorder...

in the xl h1 case that would make it a hdv camera with an hdv cassette recorder, making it an hdv camcorder

if thats not the case then i have bigger issues with the identity less xlh1 because canon does not sell a complete solution, canon should sell some way to record the signal i'm getting out of this camera that attaches to the unit making it a self contained unit, other wise the xl h1 just becomes a video head (and it should be listed as that)...with no way to record the signal because no company out there makes any attachments to this camera that would make it a self contained unit....

also what happens when the sony z2 gets hd-sdi output would that camera also stop being an hdv camera? how about the HDR-HC2, would you still call that an hdv camcoder?

stop all the sillyness...the only true 1/3 chip cam thats not hdv is the hvx200 and that might prove to be a big mistake by panasonic in a year we might see them groveling to get into the hdv consortium...

I agree with the above poster.

Misplaced snobbery I suspect, especially when you consider that the chipset to enable HD-SDI output runs at cost $35 per 1000 units. Maybe it will start a new trend - cant be that difficult or expensive to solder an HDSDI chip over the DSP output

- SHARP take note; since they are the last of the consortium to announce a HDV camera

Heh, the HDV consortium would welcome Panasonic with open arms!

But you're right, this is a confusing identity issue. I think the best way to describe the XL H1 is as "an HD camera head with an HDV tape transport attached."

In my opinion, to say that the H1 is an HDV camcorder is just as misleading as saying that it's not an HDV camcorder.

To position it as an HDV camcorder doesn't tell the whole story. It certainly is an HDV camcorder, but there's a lot more going on, and it's all in the uncompressed HD out to SDI. That's the primary feature of this camera. It's going to be marketed primarily to smaller TV stations, rental houses, and multi-camera event specialists who are attracted to the top features of the H1: the HD-SDI output, TC in and out, Genlock, and complete CCU via the "Console" software. Most of the H1's buyers will seldom if ever use this thing as an HDV camcorder. And at nine thousand bucks, I seriously doubt many people will ever buy one just for its HDV capability. Why would you do that, when you can have two Sony Z1's instead? Also, who would buy an H1 exclusively for field use, when the Panasonic P2 camera is better suited for field recording at the same price? Nope, Canon is well aware that the XL H1 is first and foremost a camera head for studio applications... after all that's what they primarily designed it for.

As for the "no way to record on camera" (other than HDV), I am not too fondly reminded of my field production days about fifteen years ago, lugging around a Panasonic 200CLE. That was considered very much a field camera, your traditional shoulder mount... actually quite comfortable all by itself... but it was not a dockable unit and there was no tape transport onboard. You had to lug around a Sony BVU110 (so-called "portable") 3/4" Umatic deck... and with a six-foot cam-to-deck cable, you wore the whole thing and walked around with it.

Canon can get away with calling it an HD camera, or an HDV camcorder, because it's both. As for other manufacturers including HD-SDI on future models, in my opinion that can't happen soon enough.

Also, just a side note, but we will be re-organizing the forum index page and grouping all of the HD gear together, including the HDV camcorders, the Canon, as well as the Panasonic P2. I'm not sure what it'll be called, since it's more than just HDV, but yes they will all be under one roof, if that helps.

The SONY DSR300 has a 26 pin connector that can be used to feed into any type of a field deck but yet it is still considered a DVCAM camera and not a SD camera head with a DVCAM deck built in. Even if there was a SDI port instead of the 26 pin connector the camera would still be the same as it is now.

Quite right, but how many people use the DSR300 that way? My point is in how the H1 will be used... who will be buying it and what will they use it for. The primary target market, the potential buyers that Canon want to reach with the H1, are those who will use it mostly in studio applications and some limited full-crew field shoots as an HD camera head. That's who they're directly pitching this thing to.

So, when does the camera come out that all the people here are waiting for? Funny, the more I hear about how much Canon is targeting the small studios with this camera, the more I'm thinking maybe it isn't the one for me...or many of us here on DVI.

If it were a couple thousand less, in the range of the JVC & Panny, I would be all over it and think of the SDI out as a "bonus feature" that I probably won't use. It still will be a tough choice this Winter...

Kevin

I've heard as early as November, but most likely December. And no, I have no plans to get one, as it's not what I'm looking for either. Although in the typical DV Info Net tradition, I hope we have the largest or at least one of the largest online communities for owners of the H1.

Gosh, we have to start the rumours already? :-) Chris, are you saying they might have another announcement in Nov/December? I mean, we all know the GL HDV version will be coming out soon. I just wonder if they'll come out with a non-SDI camera that is HDV at a lower price point. Thoughts?

KW

Oh, man... I misread your post! When you said "So, when does the camera come out that all the people here are waiting for?" -- I thought you meant *this* camera, the XL H1, that's why I said Nov./Dec. Heck, I have absolutely no idea when they're going to announce an HDV succesor to the GL2, but there's plenty of speculation (as always) in our Area 51 forum... in particular, see this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=51474

Sorry about that!!

Maybe the forum should be called something like: "One-third inch HD/HDV cameras." They're all 1/3" CCD cameras regardless of features, cost, etc. That would seem a logical grouping to me. As long as you don't use that dreaded nonword "prosumer."

Trust me, if I had my way, that nonword "prosumer" would be struck from the record permanently.

I agree with that!
What we need is a word that means something like: "One-third inch chip camcorders with enough quality and features to be considered almost totally professional but not quite, yet priced within a range so as to be affordable by independent filmmakers and small production guys." There's probably one of those big long German words beginning with "welt..." that means exactly that.

Best I could do on short notice, Bill:

Ansage!

Weltbehandlung Elecktronische Zwischenspannung "Einfach Gleich Kamera" mit kleiner 1cm Durchmesser Bildfensterplatte, und Wiedergabekopf, Gegenstreiflicht und Schulterstativ eingebaut.

Ausschalter-Sicherungsautomat und Pannenschalter auf der Verbindungsleiste Verteilerkasten nicht umfaßt.

Enthält einen Regiestuhl und einen Gummi-Hammer.

Kosten: 4,995 EU. Vorhandener: Oktober 2005.

I could actually see a very large market for HDV use for this camera. For years the wedding market has been buying DSR300's and 500's equal to and well above the $9,000.00 price tag of the XLH1. I would say this has been the largest market for cameras in that price range. Weddings producers wanting to start using HDV may want this camera because of the shoulder mount design. While the JVC is cheaper some wedding people do not like the jittery look of 24p and 30p video. 1080i seems to be what a lot of the wedding people I have talked to want to have right now. For 1080i your options are a Z1/FX1 which is handheld or the Hc1 which is a small single chip camera. I think a lot of the wedding crowd will jump on this camera as finally a highend 1080i camera in their price range. For those producers who already have a Z1/FX1 this is a great highend addition to shoot 1080i with to match as a second camera. The JVC being the only decent 720p camera gives no other camera options right now.

If the XLH1 trully looks great and works great trust me wedding producers will spend $9,000.00 for the camera as well as buy 2 or 3 of them and strictly shoot HDV.

I'm a wedding producer, and trust me on this, i won't
spend 9K on a new cam, unless is at least 1/2 inch and full shoulder mount with decent low light abilities. This kind of cam will be for sale in less than
a year (i hope). Meanwhile, i have no pressure on me to change format. Most of us can wait and gain. Unless you got a technophiliac bug.

I think plenty of wedding videographers will be buying either this camera, or another HDV camera in the coming year. $9K is a bit steep for a wedding camera, but if your market is demanding HD content and you're booking weddings, those cameras will pay themselves off rather quickly.

I knew a guy who shot weddings a while back and he bought a DSR500 to shoot with. This was back when most guys were shooting with VX1000s if they were lucky. He got booked up like crazy just on the strength of the camera. He used to take it to wedding shows with him and have it set up on the tripod behind him in his booth.

There is something to be said for having the best toys on the playground when it comes to business.

(it's not my personal approach, but I've seen plenty of people do it well)

Point is, I think the upper end of the wedding market in large cities will definitely buy into this camera, as well as the JVC.

Im wondering why canon are taking the studio route when they have a fairly strong following with the indie film market. And thats ok, but why call it an XL series camera.

Im on the opinion its an HDV cam with an HD SDI output.

Its sort of like calling a Toyota Camry with mag wheels a sports car.

Actually it's more like calling it a set of mag wheels with a car on it.

:)

That's pretty funny, but then you'd have to look at the Panasonic P2 camera the same way. Would you say the HVX200 is "just a DV camera" because it has a DV tape transport? It's the exact same thing with the XL H1, except instead of P2 cards, you're recording to your HD deck of choice.

Now I'm not saying this is "better" than P2 at all... but I find it interesting that we're starting to go through the same gyrations that we did in the early days of our P2 forum, where some folks just didn't get it. The HDV transport on the H1 is no more or less definitive of the camera than the DV transport is on the HVX200.

"Had" is more like it... that market is now firmly owned by Panasonic. If you ask me, that's the primary reason for the shift to the studio route.

your wrong there, the hvx200 actually gives you an option to Record dv and hd on the camera where with the xl h1 you can only Record hdv,

lets not forget its called a:
cam(era)(re)corder...
not a cam(era)(out)putter(with)op(ional)de(ck)(purch)ase...

my optura gives me firewire out with software to use it as a web cam by canon...should i call it a web cam? or a dv cam?

I'll see if your position makes any sense when in a few years every hdv camera starts to have hd-sdi...

You can call it that if you want. I'm calling it an "HD camera." I stand by my prediction that the majority of its buyers will seldom if ever put a tape in it.

It all boils down to one thing... what are you going to use it for. If you use your Optura primarily as a webcam, then sure it's a webcam. If it never leaves your desk, if you never put a tape in it, if you have DV Messenger fired up all the time, then yes it's a webcam.

If you look at it that way, the Z1 and even the single chip HDV cameras are really HD cameras that record to DV tape. HDV is a type of HD.

Canon's marketing strategy is going to be interesting. They're sort of cutting in on JVC's turf by going after small TV stations and corporate in house and institutional production units that do multicam setups. JVC seems to have had a pretty tight lock on that market for years. Of course nobody thought that Panasonic could kick Betacam SP out of TV news with a DV25 format either.

Maybe Canon will sell big time to that market. However, you still go to their consumer division for info on the camera. A slick JVC salesman would say something like, "Well...sure you can go with Canon, but it's a consumer product. WE are a professional group and support our customer base that way. What are you gonna do--take your camera to Best Buy to have it fixed?"

My point is, Canon still sells it as a consumer product, which is a bit ridiculous. If they truly are going after a new market, somebody should let their marketing department know.

HDV is indeed a type of HD. Further to your point, Bill, I think it's interesting when one compares the actual branding on the Canon XL2 and XL H1, on the left side by the power dial.

XL2: "3CCD Digital Video Camcorder"
XL H1 "3CCD HD Video Camera Recorder"

There's a reason why the H1 camera isn't labeled "camcorder" like the XL2 was. Although if you go to the Canon DV website, then hey, it's a "3CCD camcorder." A marketing mistake in my opinion. Which leads me to firmly agree with you on your second point, that they definitely have their work cut out for them and it'll be a tough row to hoe for a department whose background lies in consumer marketing. I certainly don't envy their position.

Another thing worth realizing though is that this just one model, for crying out loud. Who's to say the next one won't represent a shift back to some other market, be it indie filmmaking or whatever?

Doesn't the XLH1 say HDV on the side?

The difference between the H1 and the HVX200 is that with the HVX200 and P2 you have a method of recording HD without any other equipment. This is the advantage of P2. High quality HD recording in the field. The H1 "must" use "optional" extra equipment in order for it to record any other type of HD. That is why I consider this a HDV camera that has the option for higher end HD. HDV is native to this camera. Just like DV and P2 recording are native to the HVX200 and DVCAM is native to the DSR570.

I can just as easily use uncompressed from the Z1 with the same "optional equipment. It might be analog and I might need a converter in between but if you are hauling around an extra deck why not haul an extra analog to SDI adapter that weighs a few ounces?

I almost get the feeling that Canon thinks HDV sucks which is why they don't want people to feel as though this is a HDV camera. HDV is the native recording format of the H1 so it is HDV. If the deck could be removed you may have a case but since the deck is built in this is not a camera head but a camcorder. While some users may use it strictly for studio work with SDI great super but it is still a HDV camera that is being used as a camera head. So are us users that would use it as a HDV camera stupid for using it that way? Should we not use it to record HDV because it isn't really a HDV camera?

If a camera has a native recording format built in you kind of have to call it as that. The SONY F900 also has optional SDI ports but nobody calls that a camera head but a HDCAM camera. The Panasonic Varicam has 2 HD-SDI ports built in and it is still a DVCPROHD camera and not a camera head

If I were their marketing guru, I'd want the same camera without the expense of the SDI output and genlock, so I could sell it cheaper to the indy filmmakers who are buying Z1s, etc. Get it down to $6K, and it might become the camera of choice for low end HD. Having the studio package available too is good if somebody needs it.

I think it's a good move, actually, trying to get into that market that JVC has always had. The thing they're selling against, though, is the new JVC HDV camera. It can give component HD out, I think, so a station would have to buy a box, but that's not a huge deal. I personally would prefer the Canon with SDI, but if you're an organization already immersed in JVC stuff, it might be a hard sell.

I guess if we start seeing HD broadcasts from Lindsborg, KS, in the near future, we can speculate that Canon is having some success. Still, I think there's going to be a heck of a lot of TV station technogeek inertia to overcome for the engineers to deal with a "consumer product" over their established suppliers. Canon should take a page from what Sony did back in the '80s--they had a specatular (for its time) tube camera that sold in the "professional" division for under $10K. The M7. Everybody used it with the BVW35 deck. Sony made the case darker and sold the same basic camera to TV stations for almost double the price. It was a "broadcast" camera. A little heavier duty and a better color, but the same basic thing. Probably it was analogous to the difference between the PD170 and the DVX2100. One is "consumer" and one is "prosumer" (arrgghh--there's that dreaded non-word again) but you can do about the same thing with both of them. Problem is, Canon already made the new camera professional photographer black, rather than orange and white. They should have made it orange and white for the indy filmmakers and charged $2500 less. Then the "broadcast" one could have been black, sold as a "broadcast HD camera" and they'd kick some JVC butt. Drop the genlock in the orange and white one.
It's all about image, duuude.

Att'n: Canon Marketing Department--please contact me and I will provide consulting services for $100 per hour. Thanks.

After thinking about this, I'm really surprised that Canon didn't sell this whole SDI "Jackpack" as an option and not a feature. I'd love this camera around $6k, but not sure I'm willing to shell out an extra $3k for "features" I won't use.

Kevin

You're selling yourself cheaply, Bill!

The fact remains that this forum needs to be more logically organised, regardless of the semantics supposedly surrounding the Canon XL H1.

For that matter: I never truly appreciated the way many HD specific subjects have been lumbered under the HDV banner.

For the sake of clarity - of which there is very little at times when HD/HDV is the subject, with more disinformation and sheer gobbly-gook flying around than cream pies at a Three Stooges pie fight... Would it be at all possible to have a Generic HD forum section, where all HD relevant information can be found?

As things stand, and will for some time to come - there are really only two digital video standards that are relevant - SD and HD, so what's the big problem with putting ALL HD stuff under that heading?

Just for the record, my "mag wheels with a car on it" was just a late night joke taking the analogy that was presented to it's extreme.

I'm not sure that the situation is completely the same as with the HVX, but your point is well taken Chris. Like I mentioned to someone else the other day, both of these cameras require you to invest in additional equipment to be able to get the most out of them.

Point is, we can call it whatever we want...
An HDV camera, an HD camera head, or even "that thing what takes the pictures".... one thing seems pretty obvious, no matter what we call it this thing should spit out some pretty amazing images. And at the end of the day that's all that matters.

Ah, but that's on the right side... everyone knows it's what's on the left side that *really* counts! Oh but wait, it's on the EVF as well.

Once again it all boils down to what its buyers will primarily use it for. HDV on this camera is not as big of a selling point as its other features.

No, not true, that's actually more of my doing than anything else.

It certainly is HDV, but it's also more than that.

Are dockable cams even being made anymore? It is a camcorder, but it'll most likely be used as a camera head.

True, but 1.485Gbps is not "HDV."

Absolutely not! The H1 will shine as an HDV camcorder, there are some other things going on with the HDV side of this camera that we haven't begun to talk about. And keep in mind that while I'm the one who has been consistently pushing the "not just HDV, but real HD" deal, that's not to take anything away from the HDV format. Remember, it's me... I'm a huge proponent of HDV. You're looking at the biggest and oldest site on the net for HDV. No other web community comes close to the amount of traffic we get for HDV here. We're at well over 30,000 posts in our HDV section now, and it's still our fastest growing area.

It is called that. Actually it's called an "HD Video Camera Recorder" if you look at the markings.

Because that's how they're used... like I said, it all comes down to who buys it and what do they use it for.

Look, this is a moot topic really... getting back to the original question, why isn't this in the HDV forum, I have already answered that it will be, except the forum category won't be called "HDV" anymore. That's because the category will be the home of the P2 camera as well. It'll be something like "Affordable High Definition" or somesuch and it'll include the HVX200, the XL H1, the Sony and JVC cams as well... so that it doesn't matter if you look at the H1 as "just HDV" or "more than HDV," either way is good. It's all High Def in the long run, and it's more affordable now than it ever has been no matter what camera you choose (although I submit that "affordable" is a highly relative term).

If you ask me, I wish we could build our "Technique" areas up much more than our "Gear" areas anyway. That's where the real education should be, I know I'm never through learning about this stuff.

why not just call it "high definition cameras" (hdv is HD), your "Standard Definition DV Camcorders" doesn't include every camera under sun and nobody had any problems figuring out where to post...

a key dv cameras missing in your sd category was the jvc 500/5000 we use the 500 and that just a standard mini dv tape camera...

also on a more interesting note with the way canon markets the xl h1 we should have a place to discuss how users are using the outputs which sets it apart, if users are using decks or raids i would be very interested in hearing what works best...especially details on decks...

Bingo! That's just exactly what I'm dealing with right now.

Absolutely! Just have to figure out what to call it. And I love your Stooges analogy, can I use that sometime?

Well, the problem has more to do with the forum index layout than anything else. We've just about reached "sprawling" status. How to better condense the main forum index page and still show all the boards is the real challenge. Where the SD cameras are right now, those might go down to subforum status... just thinking out loud... it's a bit of a headache honestly.

The are two reasons why I never did that. My buddy Mike Martin has a popular 500/5000 forum on his site at http://fastforwardclub.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/index.php? and I didn't want to compete with him. Besides, I couldn't get anybody interested in moderating a general "big camera" board for us back then.

There's been enough recent interest and also a couple of volunteers that will enable us to revisit this topic soon, though, so anything can still happen.

I think putting all the 1/3" chip HD/HDV camcorders into an "affordable HD" section is great. That's what they are.

I figure it isn't the easiest thing in the World to do, and I don't envy the effort you're obviously putting in too get everything as organised as is possible.

I do know that I appreciate your efforts, and thank you for the efforts you've already made in creating the most erudite and comprehensive of the forums dealing with digital video.

Bwhoo, bwhoo, bwhoo, bwhoo...

I've just checked with my agent Larry, who conferred with my lawyer Moe, who in turn consulted my publicist Curly; that you can use any line of my text as you wish, as long as I can reserve the right to hold my hand up between my eyes to prevent the ole two finger eye poke...

As promised, this board is now part of our "affordable HD / HDV Acquisition" category:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=61

Hope this helps,