Is it all just hype - 24F? CONFUSED NEED HELP at DVinfo.net

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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old December 15th, 2005, 03:20 AM   #1
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Is it all just hype - 24F? CONFUSED NEED HELP

Ok so now i am totaly confused...

I seems that there is a big hype about the hvx 200 even if there is no production modell at all - i downloaded the footage i watched it over and over again and thought "nice" not revolutionary just "nice" ... But everyone is like "This footage is from another world... and so on"

I read a lot on the www.hdforindies.com webpage - is it just me am i paranoid or does he sound sometimes like a fanboy of the hvx200 - at least it sounds to me like the hvx gets a "bonus" - Even more extreme at dvxuser ... there is a forum for the hvx200 but i did not find one for the xl h1 or hd100

Ok can stand that like always there are/is "fans", "marketing" and hype and all of that crap what really drives me crazy is - HOW to seperate the objective statements from the hype driven ones:

There are People who saw XL H1 24 F Footage on this forum and or the canon promo stuff and say it works pretty good - there were complaints about lower resolution and a lot of fear about the compression but no one till know ( at least as i can remember ) had any problems about the "motion" of 24 F itself...
Why should it be any different? there are 24 recordings a second just like 24P or? it is compressed progressive so there are 24 Full pictures for a secon or? so why would the motion be different than 24P - Resolution ok is different copmression artifacts - could be there - BUT WHY THE MOTION - ok start to loose my mind... (I talk about the latest statement from mike curtis.)

Can anyone make a clear solid reliable statement here - just for the sake of order. IS 24F motionwise any different to 24P and if than why?

Thanks a LOT!
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Old December 15th, 2005, 03:41 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Karrer
i downloaded the footage i watched it over and over again and thought "nice" not revolutionary just "nice" ... But everyone is like "This footage is from another world... and so on"
From reading alot of these impressions, I think that comes from people comparing the hvx to the dvx100
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Old December 15th, 2005, 03:42 AM   #3
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Fanboy... LOL

I feel you on that! it's funny isn't it. It reminds me of how people name their MAC's and make them part of the family and what-not. I even know of a guy who gave his MAC Powerbook a 'placesetting' at his dinner table. it's amazing how Apple got people loving their products like pets. And regardless of its shortcomings, they will defend them to the death and fight for Apple like a Hoe would fight for her Pimp.

Well, enter some camera manufacturers. There is one in particular who has their clients hypnotized. Me, I got em all, Sony TRV17/Z1U, JVC DV500, Canon XL1s/XL-H1, Panasonic DVX100a. And I love em all. And I use em all. And I like the one that does the best job for what I am doing.

But some people.....it's not like that. I try to explain some things to a few brainwashies......and it's like talking to a wall. When I read that article a few minutes ago, I IMMEDIATELY got the 'fanboy' impression that you got, but then I looked around and it seemed they are company/product agonistic (a new word i learned this year at this website *smile*) type of website.

That's why I wait for good hearted people to report on these things. People who have nothing to lose or gain. People who are not 'motivated' by a higher power.

I guess you'll have to wait and see. While you're waiting for a report.....others will be waiting for the HVX-200, and waiting and waiting and waiting. I wonder how many people lost money, production time, opportunites, etc.... because they "waited" this past year? lol

*shakin' my head* I'm sorry but I just can't get down with that...... I don't wait for vaporware or mockups or announcments and empty promises to finally come true

If I need a camera today...I BUY ONE TODAY. MAKE MONEY TODAY, sell it tomorrow......As a result...things keep moving for me and the people I work under/with/above. knowwhatimean?

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Last edited by Shannon Rawls; December 15th, 2005 at 04:15 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2005, 01:56 PM   #4
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Shannon and I may disagree on a few things, but his last statement is just perfect: "If I need a camera today...I BUY ONE TODAY. MAKE MONEY TODAY, sell it tomorrow......As a result...things keep moving for me and the people I work under/with/above." These cameras are cheap enough that if you've got a job that it can be hired for, get it, put it to work, and if it gets superseded in the future with a model that you can put to better work, sell the current one and get the new one.

As regards DVXUser -- there are forums for the XLH1 and Sony and JVC HD100, they're just lumped under a catch-all forum called "Other Cameras". The DVXUser community has a common thread -- people who used, and prefer, the DVX. So while other cameras are welcome for discussion, they're not what that community was brought together by -- and a high-def version of their beloved DVX is obviously going to garner a lot of interest. DVInfo, on the other hand, has a different common thread -- it's a brand-agnostic forum dedicated to the dissemination of knowledge, and has a higher code of conduct. It's a different type of community, and I gladly participate in both because there's excellent info to be had on both.

As far as "fanboys", well, there's always been fanboys of certain products -- I couldn't believe it when I saw that there are halloween costumes for ipods now. Yes, a little vampire suit you can dress your ipod up in. The question is: is someone brainwashed to where they're on a "religious crusade" to prove that their "one true product" is the only one anyone would ever need, or are they biased towards that product simply because the product actually is better for their purposes? That's the question that needs to be answered. If someone won't acknowledge a genuine, demonstrable, scientifically-provable superiority of a competitor's product, well, that's when they cross over into the "fanboy" realm and their opinion starts to have less and less validity.

There's observable science, and there's opinion/bias, and both play a role in someone's decision-making process. If 24F indeed acts like CineFrame 24, then that would be unquestionably inferior to genuine 24P on a technical level. However, if someone simply cannot imagine themselves using a Panasonic product, if they bleed Sony blue through and through, then they may convince themselves that the CineFrame 24 difference doesn't matter, or that it's "just as good" to shoot 60i and convert in post, etc. And maybe, for them, that's a valid decision-making process. But it is not a scientifically, objectively defensible position, because it clearly is demonstrable that CF24 is not the equivalent of 24P.

Then again, there are those who couldn't give a hoot about 24p at all, who live and die for the "60i" look, so that argument bears no influence whatsoever on their decision-making process.

And there are many other subjects that can be discussed in similar vein -- interchangeable lenses, for one. Recording formats, for another. At some point you have to decide what's good enough for your circumstances -- every product involves a compromise somewhere, so you have to determine what you're okay with compromising on, and what you won't compromise on. And when reading others' opinions, you have to try to understand where they decided that the compromises were for them. On the HVX200/P2 thing, obviously one compromise that early HVX buyers will make is on recording time. For dramatic narrative work, having two 4gb cards is plenty to make a workable workflow for many shooters. For unscripted documentary work, having two 4gb cards may be totally unworkable. So whether the P2 solution works is a matter for you to decide as regards your own workflow, and if you can't figure out a way to make it work for you, then all the other features and genuine benefits (and yes, fanboy hype) become irrelevant -- if it won't work for you, it won't work, right?

As for Mike Curtis' blog, I have never noticed a hint of bias from him towards or away from any particular manufacturer. He seems to be a rabid fan of all things HD, from all manufacturers.
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Old December 15th, 2005, 08:35 PM   #5
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Regarding HDforIndies.com, Mike just posted this:

UPDATED AGAIN THURSDAY - David Newman of Cineform emailed to tell me they've been playing with the cameras for a while, that 24F works as expected (1/48th shutter and 1/4th sec time base), and that the Canon demo footage is KNOWN to have been posted poorly, and is not indicative of what the 24F stuff should look like. So FULLY disregard my comments about bad cadence issues with the 24F footage."

www.hdforindies.com
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Old December 15th, 2005, 09:12 PM   #6
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That is interesting....I don't know what troubles me more...that the camera has a problem or that Canon would let demo footage out that was botched in post...
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Old December 15th, 2005, 09:27 PM   #7
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Erhem... as pure speculation, wouldn't the term "fanman" be more befitting? as fanboy would indicate an age of a pre-pubescent child. I would hope that most members here are not children !! :) anyway I kid :)

Hey Shannon Nice to hear from you again , (wondered where you went)

Now that all the Companies have all given birth to their first Gen. "prosumer" HD cams; the choice for users is ripe. You can fight all you want, but each camera is suited for its only application. I'm not going to say, but you get the idea.
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Old December 15th, 2005, 10:27 PM   #8
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DOOD TEH CANON SUXXXORS SONY IS DA BOMB MAD PROPS FOR TEH HVX ALL YOUR 24P ARE BELONG TO US LOL!!!!!!

;)

I think they call them fanboys because of the maturity level, not the actual age. I basically agree with pretty much everything everyone has said here. For the longest time, the DVX was THE 24p camera in our price range. Now, we have JVC, CANON, PANASONIC and SONY all throwing their hats into the HD ring, for the benefit of all. Each camera has it's strengths, be it price, codec, lens, recording format, and image quality.

Here's my breakdown of strengths for the four:

SONY FX1/Z1 - Undisputed king of HD price. You can almost buy THREE FX1s for the price of ONE XL-H1. The FX1/Z1 works perfectly for 60i Hi-Def on cheap $5 tape. Events, weddings, documentaries, and it's portable enough to get away with no prermits in public areas.

PANASONIC HVX200 - Indie filmmaker's dream. It's a mini-Varicam, complete with full-out 720p slow-motion, and 1080/24p DVCPro HD for big-screen detail like the big-boys. Throw in a couple of 4GB P2 cards, and for $7000 you have more than enough for Sundance.

CANON XL-H1 - FX Studio in-a-box. Quality glass, interchangeable lens, and HD-SDI uncompressed output for less than $9000. Green-screen work of the highest quality. The long telephoto and $5 tapes should work wonders for nature shooting as well.

JVC HD100 - The event shooter. Interchangeable lens with real manual controls, and a killer form-factor for that impressive ENG look. 720/24p will make a lot of weddings, music videos, and documentaries a lot more film-like. All on $5 MiniDV tapes for around $6K.

This is just how I would categorize these four cameras. Others will undoubtedly find different uses for them. I'm sure some will use a Z1 and make a great narrative film. The HVX can record weddings in 4:2:2 DVCPro50 and a Firestore for great DVDs. The XL-H1 would be awesome for sporting events in 1080i. The HD100 is already being used for indie features. They're just tools. Pick the one that you like, and leave the fanboy comments to the folks fighting over the XBOX, PS3 and REVOLUTION ;)
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Old December 15th, 2005, 10:40 PM   #9
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lol

see what i mean.

- shannon
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Old December 15th, 2005, 11:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Donato
That is interesting....I don't know what troubles me more...that the camera has a problem or that Canon would let demo footage out that was botched in post...
Canon problem's was no one could post 24F when they shot that footage, if only they came to CineForm with the footage as we had 24F working the day after the first M2T file was put online. The post they went through had 24F sent via HD-SDI at 60i to DVCPRO-HD deck, then the pulldown removal either wasn't done or simply messed up. They had to show something at DV Expo.
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Old December 16th, 2005, 08:24 AM   #11
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Thanks for that info.....I don't know about the "had to show". I agree it is a tough call but the way the web works, like it has here, it probably has done more harm than having something to show was worth...BTW can you comment on the exposure latitude complaints which were also addressed
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Old December 16th, 2005, 10:48 AM   #12
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I haven't notice any issue with exposure latitude, but then my tests where not pushing that.
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Old December 16th, 2005, 02:50 PM   #13
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I haven't shot a lot of tape with the XL-H1 but I have noticed that on just about every scene the bottom fifth of the histogram was empty and that the images could be made a lot crisper by filling that area in during post. All the shots I'm speaking of were done in full manual with the factory presets.
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