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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old December 26th, 2005, 06:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hse Kha
Then I will complain :) To who though???
A letter to your state attorney general. A google search will give you the address for your state.

Best,
Christopher
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Old December 27th, 2005, 04:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hse Kha
Right now it is selling strictly for $8999.
Hello, here in Sweden the XL H1 is advertised for SEK 67920, VAT excluded (http://www.scandinavianphoto.se/?31694).
This should cost you about USD 8565 but this is the PAL version. Wow, for the first time we have something here which is cheaper than in the US!!!
Maybe Canon felt to compensate us for the 25 % VAT? Thanks.
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Old December 27th, 2005, 10:41 AM   #18
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I'm not certain that price fixing, as in Canon coercing dealers to sell at a certain price, is any kind of crime. Felonious price fixing would happen if all the dealers got together and, and agreed amongst each other to set the price artificially. But regardless, I am quite sure that canon is NOT requiring dealers to sell the camera at 8999 or any other amount.(*see below)

There are several ways a manufacturer can control the retail price. There is the MAP, described earlier. The most effective way is to simply set the retail price very close to the wholesale price (and then offer sales incentives based on volume). Apple computer does this. Finally, (and this is the Saturn "one price" model) you simply make the dealers few and far between. This has nothing to do creating an expensive "support network", but is simply a method of limiting competition. The more dealers there are, the more likely you will see price cutting. In reality, more and more manufacturers are combining all of these models, and are getting quite good at controlling the range at which their products are sold.

That said, I am quite certain that within a few months, we will see some relieviing of the price pressure on this camera. This same debate raged around the announcement of the xl2, and with the official voices saying the price was set, when in fact the camera was almost immediately available for less, and was commonly discounted within three months.

Regarding the camera only being available through "professional video" dealers, I disagree. This apparently will be true for the HVX200, but my visit to a local retailer last weekend found the H1(actually 3 H1's) sitting next to quite a few amateur canon and sony palmcorders (and there were no Sony DSR-whatevers, or Varicams on the shelf).

Barry

Edit: OK, so while I stick by virtually everything I just said, I do want to say that I just got off the phone with my longtime dealer here in california, and if he was going to discount this camera for anyone, it would be me, as I've spent more than $100k with him over the last few years. He told me flatly that canon is tightly controlling the cost on this camera, and that he cannot sell it for less, "at this point" -- that a few months down the line it may be a different story. He indicated that that they would be in trouble with canon if they sold it for less, which would tell us that canon is in the "process" of setting up this professional pipeline, and they don't want to jeopardize it (this store doesn't have professional video department, only still photo). However, he immediately offered free accessories as a way of discounting the camera, so I guess that is some sort of workaround.
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Old December 27th, 2005, 11:29 AM   #19
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why we pay up for canon products....

canon spends about 8% of revenue on R&D. by comparison, major technology innovators such as IBM, sony and xerox spend between 4% and 6%.

canon received 17,000 U.S. patents between 1995 and 2004, second during that period only to IBM.

i don't like what i'm hearing on this board about canon's biz practices, but i guess innovation doesn't come cheap.....
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Old December 27th, 2005, 01:44 PM   #20
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Canon seems to have a world wide policy: It's the same story here. Canon does not let whoever to sell the XL H1, but instead they insist for certain level of professionalism and experience in selling photo equipments from the retailer. At first, I was supposed to get my camera from Germany, but then, they told me, Canon does not allow them to sell the camcorder to another country.

Johan, this was the first time the same camera body can be set to function both in NTSC and PAL mode. Maybe this affected the European list prices.
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Old December 27th, 2005, 04:15 PM   #21
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We have a similar deal here in the San Francisco area to what is happening in Europe. Dealers who sold the XL1 and XL2 have been told that they cannot sell the H1. There is only one authorized H1 dealer and he happens to be the biggest video dealer in the area. He also offers repair service on most of the equipment he sells. My dealer in Modesto (60 miles away) can still sell the XL1 and 2, but believes Canon was trying to get away from the cut throat way the XLs were sold in the past from on-line box shops with no service. When you limit the outlets of your product so severely, it's pretty easy to control prices.
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Old December 27th, 2005, 08:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hse Kha
Right now it is selling strictly for $8999.

But 1-2 months from now, what do you reckon the street price of it will settle at? Anyone know the dealer margin on this camera? If it is the same as the XL-2, then I would guess that it will be obtainable for around $7000 or so.

What do you guys think?
Being from a retail background and having worked in a place that had an 800 number I like to track this stuff... best GUESS and I'll stress guess is that they are at a 25% mark. I just picked up an XL2 and given that I picked up my cam for 3999 and the thing retails for 4999 my logic is right in line with box house 800 number prices of a 5% profit on a box is a great deal.

Here are the numbers that I ran on the XL2

XL2-List 4999
25%-Cost 3749
5%-Profit 3936 round to 3999 and you hit the price point.

XLH1 List 8999
Cost 6750
5 Up on Cost 7086- figure 7099 and you're in business...

I concur with your estimates. ML
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Old December 27th, 2005, 10:23 PM   #23
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Apple has a similar racket... I highly doubt that retailers are making $2K profit off the XLH1 right now.... I will ask around and find the actual price...


ash =o)
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Old December 27th, 2005, 10:45 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
Apple has a similar racket... I highly doubt that retailers are making $2K profit off the XLH1 right now.... I will ask around and find the actual price...

ash =o)
Ash we were an Apple VAR and their thing is a little different, they keep a very low mark on their stuff, sometimes as low as 10%, they also treat the major stores different than the VARs.

The biggest issue with them from memory (this has likely changed since 1993) was that as soon as we got our shippment of Macs with a 1299 list, they lowered the price to 999 and we were sitting on inventory that cost more than the current price, then they wouldn't give you a credit or take the stuff back. We dropped them after 2 years, I can only hope they have changed their ways.

They also controlled the prices, very similary to Sony, where they would call your store and see if you would sell for less than list on your 800# and then pull your dealership if they caught you. Things may be a little different now with the eCommerce economy but back then it was hardcore legal actions for box house low profit and move the gear mentalities.

ML
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Old December 27th, 2005, 10:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Barry Goyette
He told me flatly that canon is tightly controlling the cost on this camera, and that he cannot sell it for less, "at this point" -- that a few months down the line it may be a different story. He indicated that that they would be in trouble with canon if they sold it for less, which would tell us that canon is in the "process" of setting up this professional pipeline, and they don't want to jeopardize it (this store doesn't have professional video department, only still photo). However, he immediately offered free accessories as a way of discounting the camera, so I guess that is some sort of workaround.
And that is exactly what we used to face in our shop as well, they want a launch with a set price globally, typically it's the box houses that will take the risk and drop the price but only after a mutually respectful time on the market.

That said, look for the biggest house to do it first since the vendor would rather cut their own throats than cut off the supply to their biggest dealer, it's bad business to kill your biggest dealer to try to send a message. That said, here in the US it's gotta be BH so we'll see how long before they plunge the price and others follow.

ml
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Old December 28th, 2005, 11:32 AM   #26
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I just got a quote from one of the few dealers that carry the XL H1 in Switzerland. I get a 5 % break on the cam itself and a 10 % break on accessories. This is from a dealer that usually gives 10-15 % breaks from MSRP. So there are breaks to be had, I guess. Nice to see that!

HTH,

Ron
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Old January 15th, 2006, 04:37 AM   #27
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LATEST UPDATE:-

B&H have it now for $8499. See this link:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

So much for the "fixed" price :)
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