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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old January 8th, 2006, 12:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Kristian Indrehus
You get progressive frames. At least thatīs how it looks and feels like. No interlace flicker in frames.
Yes, correct, it doesn't flicker, but technically it is still interlaced. It doesn't have flicker just because the initial source is progressive, so interlaced fields are from the same moment in time, this is why it doesn't flicker (I guess), but is it the best or would there be an improvement if we somehow managed to convert it to real progressive file. I don't know, I am not sure... Maybe it allready is progressive after all.
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Old January 8th, 2006, 01:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levan Bakhia
Yes, correct, it doesn't flicker, but technically it is still interlaced. It doesn't have flicker just because the initial source is progressive, so interlaced fields are from the same moment in time, this is why it doesn't flicker (I guess), but is it the best or would there be an improvement if we somehow managed to convert it to real progressive file. I don't know, I am not sure... Maybe it already is progressive after all.
If you de-interlace you see loss of resolution. So both fields are needed to make a full frame. But when movies are transferred to video. They donīt get less progressive, do they?

I may be wrong, but I donīt think it gets much more progressive than this. Even at the cinema you see every 24 frames flicker twice before you eyes. 48 shutter in the machine when the reel is projected. So itīs how itīs recorded that matters.
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Old January 8th, 2006, 02:37 PM   #18
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So is there a way I can Capture through firewire into my Powerbook
at 24f - or do I have to wait for the FCP 24f update?
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Old January 9th, 2006, 01:52 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Kristian Indrehus
If you de-interlace you see loss of resolution. So both fields are needed to make a full frame. But when movies are transferred to video. They donīt get less progressive, do they?

I may be wrong, but I donīt think it gets much more progressive than this. Even at the cinema you see every 24 frames flicker twice before you eyes. 48 shutter in the machine when the reel is projected. So itīs how itīs recorded that matters.

ye, but in cinema it flickers twice but the same field. So what I am saying is following.


Now lets assume with xl h1 you shot a sequence of 5 frames A B C D E, all of them are recorded progressively. Then it outputs this frames in interlaced way and is captured in FCP as AA BB CC DD EE. Now how is it playedback? every 1/48th of the second you get the following it starts with just A- then AA BA BB CB CC DC DD DE EE and so on. So, if what I write here is correct, every other 1/48 of the second you get fields in from two different frames, which is what concerns me. But on the other hand if we could recombine AA BB CC DD EE into A B C D E then we would get the trully progressive frame. but maybe also this is absolutelly incorrect also. This is my assumption, but I am not a technical guy, and I don't even know if fields are displayed in a manner I described here.

So what do you think?
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Old January 9th, 2006, 02:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levan Bakhia
ye, but in cinema it flickers twice but the same field. So what I am saying is following.

Now lets assume with xl h1 you shot a sequence of 5 frames A B C D E, all of them are recorded progressively. Then it outputs this frames in interlaced way and is captured in FCP as AA BB CC DD EE. Now how is it playedback? every 1/48th of the second you get the following it starts with just A- then AA BA BB CB CC DC DD DE EE and so on.
I see your point. Iīm in PAL land. Here we use 25 frames which lines up perfectly. So I guess someone else should answer that question.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 03:39 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jonas Nystrom
You can capture through FW (at least for 50i, haven't managed 25f yet).
Do you mean you tried 25F but it wouldn't work?

I can't see why FCP can't cope with 25F, isn't it carried in a 50i field with simultaneous fields? Surely the computer just sees it as a 50i HDV stream? Can someone explain?
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Old January 9th, 2006, 03:46 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Mike Marriage
Do you mean you tried 25F but it wouldn't work?

I can't see why FCP can't cope with 25F, isn't it carried in a 50i field with simultaneous fields? Surely the computer just sees it as a 50i HDV stream? Can someone explain?
Mike, I have captured 25F with firewire using Apple intermediate codec. No problem at all.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 02:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Kristian Indrehus
Mike, I have captured 25F with firewire using Apple intermediate codec. No problem at all.
Per Kristian,
So the waiting for an update of FCP to cope with the XL H1 in F mode is only for the NTSC world?! Great for us in PAL countries!
By the way, does it work well with FCP? How big Apple computer do you recommend for efficient work?
Hälsningar Johan
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Old January 9th, 2006, 04:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Kristian Indrehus
Mike, I have captured 25F with firewire using Apple intermediate codec. No problem at all.
Thanks,
But you can't edit 25F natively? I was wondering what prevented FCP from working with 25F because isn't it just a 50i stream with simultaneously captured fields?
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Old January 10th, 2006, 02:30 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mike Marriage
Thanks,
But you can't edit 25F natively? I was wondering what prevented FCP from working with 25F because isn't it just a 50i stream with simultaneously captured fields?

Exactly Mike, that's exactly what I was trying to exlain when I described the A B C D E process overall. Actually I also have PAL version. And I absolutelly agree with what you say, it is 50i but with simultaneously captured frames. So, the question is, at the end, is it progressive at all? If not, what can we do to make it progressive? Or should we wait untill FCP will natively support 25F mode as well?
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Old January 10th, 2006, 05:24 AM   #26
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Maybe I can help here.
Film telecined in PAL land runs at 25fps and ends up as 50i. Well actually it's now know as 25psf to designate the different. 25 frames are created per second and each of these split into two fields that contain the odd and even lines of the original frame. At any point one can simply merge the two fields to create the original frames.
The advantage of this way of working is it's 100% compatible with the existing video system. Also as noted before it's not possible to simply display 25 fps (or even 24fps), the flicker is horrible. Technically one could display the same frame twice but that gains nothing as far as I know compared to displaying the alternate fields. Certainly no one seems to see any problem watching film originated movies on PAL TVs.
Does any of this matter in regard to editing, can you simply treat 25psf as 50i?
Well your NLE will be none the wiser, it's got no way of knowing that the two fields originated at the same time unlike 50i where the two fields are taken 20mSec apart (that's why 50i has interlace artifacts). However there is a subtle difference that may or may not cause you concern. All your transitions will be rendered interlaced, they will exhibit interlace artifacts and if you attemp to de-interlace the rendered file they'll be quite apparent. The saving grace is that only temporal transitions are affected, things like page curls (shudder), dissolves should be fine. If you're delivering for 50i broadcast I doubt many would ever notice, it's more of an issue in NTSC land where the film is 24fps but the FXs can end up rendered at 60i, many US sitcoms are done this way.
Hope this clears it up.
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Old January 10th, 2006, 06:57 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Forssblad
Per Kristian,
So the waiting for an update of FCP to cope with the XL H1 in F mode is only for the NTSC world?! Great for us in PAL countries!
By the way, does it work well with FCP? How big Apple computer do you recommend for efficient work?
Hälsningar Johan
I have a G5 dual 2.0 and that works great for me. I have only done some test editing because I have a dead-line for a DVD release. BUT, I was really surprised how smooth everything was. To me it feels just like editing SD or even DV. Mooving through frames is as fast as always and color correction real time as always. Now.. in safe RT
thatīs about what you can do in real-time. Even a simple crossfade asks for rendering on my machine. In unlimited RT you can do realtime cross and some more. How much more I donīt know yet. Anyway, you need a machine as fast as possible.

Me, I think Iīm going to wait and see what the new Intel macīs about. I wonder what could be done with the quadīs though.

Mange hilsener fra broderlandet.
Per Kr.
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