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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old January 21st, 2006, 02:31 PM   #16
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What Is 24F Footage?

I have no understanding of the difference between 24F HDV footage on the Canon, and 24P footage (ProHD) on the Panny.

Actually, I understand the DVCProHD100 720P footage, but what exactly is 24F footage?
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Old January 21st, 2006, 08:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek West
I would like to thank everyone for your feedback on the subject. I'll continue to consider the H1, and will probably just wait until I need a camera for a project and will decide that day which one will be best for me and "next day" it from one of the DVinfo.Net sponsors I buy from.

Interesting you and I just talked about this in email Derek. I think it's possible that Focus Enhancements may just beat Apple to the solution with the upgrade to the FS-4HD. They're promising 24f Quicktime file extraction from the HDV stream for FCP by April or so (what's with everything in this HD mess being available in April <g>).
I'm kind of curious why no one seems to be talking much about the Firestore for the XL-H1, in so much as it would make the H1 a much more practical tapeless system than the P2 approach...with a tape backup to boot.
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 04:09 AM   #18
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Derek, my take on the Canon vs HVX debate goes like this.....

Canon wins in the resolution department in 60i vs the HVX with no problem. In 24F, it holds onto an advantage of maybe 50 or so lines. Those 50 lines are hardly noticeable to the average viewer, if noticeable at all. Much of what is considered a "sharper image" that the H1 boasts can also be attributed to the H1's robust sharpness settings. I'm sure that if it were possible to turn the artificial sharpness off completely, you'd be hard pressed to notice much difference in sharpness with both cams.

The HVX wins in color without a doubt. All he HVX clips I've seen have a rich and defined color palette. We're talking 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 ofcourse, so what else would you expect. That's not to say that you can't boost saturation or other settings in order to attempt to match the HVX's color with the H1, but it would only be a mock attempt and not the real deal. For green screen work, the HVX is the clear winner.

Noise, well this has been overly exhausted and debated over for some time now and it is quite evident that at -3db the H1 does give you less noise, at the cost of lost light ofcourse. The noise argument is a mute one until we get some real side by side test footage with the H1 and HVX.

Sound, well uncompressed audio is going to give you a cleaner signal so with that being said, the HVX wins in that department.

The HVX offers variable frame rates, so it wins in the creative department.

Lens...The H1's lens are a bit of a hassle in manual mode. Focusing takes a bit of time to get used to and is often unrepeateable. The HVX's manual mode gives you a great amount of control and fairly repeatable focusing, in addition to its live focus assist option. The H1 seems to have a problem with chromatic abberation. Haven't notied any from the HVX as of yet.

Now there's the H1 in hd-sdi uncompressed 8bit. Here's where things get tricky. The H1 will in hd-sdi offer 4:2:2 color, but with this comes the problem of audio. To get your audio you'll need another recording unit dedicated to audio. This can be quite a hassle unless you're going for the studio system or have a large crew and budget to go with the setup. Expect to spend a good $5,000 for a recording comp capable of capturing the uncompressed signal.

The HVX vs H1 debate leaves a quite obvious victor in my opinion. The HVX.

If you're going to spend the extra money on the H1 hd-sdi setup, you're looking to spend about $15,000 for the whole setup. At that price point, why not forget the H1 and spend a bit more to grab a Sony XDCam which will probably take out both the HVX and H1.

At this price point the HVX is a clear winner. Hope this helps in your decision Derek, it sure has helped in mine. =)
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 05:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Giberti
I'm kind of curious why no one seems to be talking much about the Firestore for the XL-H1, in so much as it would make the H1 a much more practical tapeless system than the P2 approach...with a tape backup to boot.
Have you read this Jim:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58783
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 06:29 AM   #20
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thanx Derek!

I will do my first real production in two weeks, so I cant tell yet how it works togheter (FCP and the H1). Happy to say, I cant see any problem yet anyway. I will do feature from a runway show, under quite difficult lighting conditions - that will be interesting to see how to manage low light with H1 - I post if it don't sucks ...;-)!
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 04:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikial Kabel
The HVX wins in color without a doubt. All he HVX clips I've seen have a rich and defined color palette. We're talking 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 ofcourse, so what else would you expect. That's not to say that you can't boost saturation or other settings in order to attempt to match the HVX's color with the H1, but it would only be a mock attempt and not the real deal. For green screen work, the HVX is the clear winner.

Lens...The H1's lens are a bit of a hassle in manual mode. Focusing takes a bit of time to get used to and is often unrepeateable. The HVX's manual mode gives you a great amount of control and fairly repeatable focusing, in addition to its live focus assist option. The H1 seems to have a problem with chromatic abberation. Haven't notied any from the HVX as of yet.
I think Nikial Makes some good points, but I have to disagree that adjusting saturation is a "mock attempt and not the real deal" I'll even go so far to say that I can mimic the panasonic color settings with canon CP in camera. I guess the panisonic looks better out of the box, but if you're going to spend 9,000 on a camera and not learn how to get the best picture you can out of it, well i mean, geez.

I also disagree with the analysis of the lens, which in my opinion has been very good. The big thing is if you don't like the lens of the canon, you can change it for what ever else is available, but if you don't like the lens of the pani then well, tough. I also find this chromatic abberation issue to be somewhat of technical over kill. I've worked on f900's with lenses that weren't correctly matched to the camera, and NO ONE editors, shooters, dvinfo members no one realized there was a problem until I brought up the info in a waveform. maybe it's more Pronounced with the HDV cameras but I think it may not be as huge a problem as it's made out to be.

the audio is questionable, I haven't tested it with teh onboard, but through a camera mixer on line outs so far it seems like there isn't an issue.

Also I like the catagory "creatively" I had no idea that multiple frame rates made you more creative.

And yeah if you're going hd-sdi you'll need to spend more money, yup, I mean it's HD-SDI of course you will. You're going to rent out a studio, get a raid array and superfast computer, but you don't want to shell out the bucks for an external audio record option? I would say that's just silly if it didn't sound like reasoning I here every day.

I think when it comes down to it, the people who like the dvx-100 will be the same ones that think that better color (maybe) and p2 make the hdx-200 an awesome camera, and those that liked the xl-? will think that HD-sdi and slightly more resolution (maybe) makes the xl-h1 better.

If you're not in one of those camps congratulations to you, go out and look at the two cameras figure out the work flow you like best and then when you have a gig that calls for you to purchase it buy the one thaat works for you.
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 05:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikial Kabel
The HVX wins in color without a doubt. All he HVX clips I've seen have a rich and defined color palette.
Need to be a little careful here. I have not yet measured the H1 but I well remember when similar comments were made about the XL2. There were lots of "what's wrong with my new camera - the colors are muted?" posts. It turned out the answer was "nothing": the XL2's color reproduction was actually more accurate than that of the previous XL series offering (the XL-1s). True color is indeed less vibrant than true color which has had the saturation boosted and that's what the chroma control is for in the NLE's. Canon apparently adopted, with the XL2, the notion that their gear should reproduce color accurately so that videographers who wish to exaggerate it have maximum flexibilty WRT to how to exaggerate it and I'm hypothesizing that they have continued with this philosopy with the XL -H1. It will take a set of tests to confirm this hypothesis.
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 05:33 PM   #23
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Nick and A.J. are right on the money. It's now all about the workflow and compromises you're willing to deal with.

Here's my little tweak I used for Sundance segments I shot with the H1:

Cinegamma 2
Master Ped -4
Color Gain +2

I captured SDI to DVCPROHD (1080i) from HDV tape with the Kona LH card, and the footage held up beautifully. I edited in FCP5 off of a single firewire drive without issues. Delivered in DVCAM but have a DV100 master Quicktime.

The producers of the show are seriously considering buying a load of H1's now.
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 05:42 PM   #24
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I just like the fact that I can make my XL-H1 look like "UNDERWORLD 2" in the camera!

Try that with some of the others. *smile*

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Old January 23rd, 2006, 10:35 PM   #25
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No offense Shannon but I remember you complaining that you couldn't set up the H1 to be properly lit between a sky and in car shot. I highly doubt you could set up the H1 to match the look of underworld 2 lol.

I personally wouldn't buy an H1 until the body only kit was available. Sure you could also purchase the manual lens but hey guess what? If you're going uncompressed in addition to purchasing the maunual lens, that adds even more money onto the price tag and at that point well...you'd be at around 16,500. And hey what do you know, the XDCAM is at your grasp at this point.

My statement still stands, the HVX is the best cam under $10,000, and if you're planning to spend in upwards of $15,000, just get yourself an XDCAM.
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 11:17 PM   #26
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Nikial,
LOL, you got me good! *smile*

I guess I was more trying to illustrate the point of color tuning the XL-H1 has over others and how it can be dialed in to look like any camera it wants to or any movie it needs to (even the UNDERWORLD look directly from the camera itself), but some other cameras can not be tweaked as far as color richness and tunablity to do the things the XL-H1 can do. Also, the HVX comes out the box with certain color settings already "SET" in stone. So it's colors are a digital mock attempt as much as any other camera is. The XL-H1 comes flat with CP color settings turned completely off showing you the raw unoptomized image from the lens and allows you to paint each and every color to your liking. So people who have been singing that "HVX COLORS ARE NICER" song simply haven't seen what the XL-H1 can do in the right hands. NOT MY HANDS OBVIOUSLY....Not that "I" shannon w. rawls can make an XL-H1 look like UNDERWORLD...I was only trying to say that it can be done.....in camera. *smile* Leave it up to me, and your movie will look like a cartoon. lol

And remember, the HVX200 is the best cam for "YOU" for under $10,000.

But good one, Nik...you got me good. LOL

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Old January 23rd, 2006, 11:35 PM   #27
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Hehe Shannon it's cool, I mean after all you're a producer If I recall and not a Camera op. =)
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 11:41 PM   #28
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Shannon, are you the man in charge of the Hollywood DV Festival?
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Old January 23rd, 2006, 11:42 PM   #29
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That would be me.
(ignore the mess @ the website....the webmaster is designing a totally new setup for 2006)
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Old January 24th, 2006, 10:12 AM   #30
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Totally agree with Nick Hiltgen and Shannon about the CP settings and quality of the Canon lens.
Picture quality, optical stabilizer and range is really good, then it´s up to the operator to
get used to it, like everything else.

In my case I really also need a long tele lens, and for shure the Pana don´t have the range even
with a clumsy teleconverter that for sure will not be a great option. I can also use the 1,6 Canon
extender that you can zoom out all the way aswell, nice! And ofcouse lot´s of other lens-solutions, Mini-35, manuals etc.
So for ME the Canon is the best cam you can get for this price...right now.

Regarding personal own settings in the camera;
I agree that the "out of the box" settings the Canon is plain and quiet lame..but you easy
make the picture really good looking, depending what you looking for!
It´s like choosing film stock, they have different looks, and here you can change on the fly.
So both are good cams, depending what you looking for.

BTW I just did my H1 first HD-SDI, greenscreen shoot...and it looked amasing!

All the best

Carl

Last edited by Carl Ny; January 24th, 2006 at 11:00 AM.
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