Apple Intermediate Codec vs. DVCPRO-HD for XL-H1 24f editing at DVinfo.net

Shannon Rawls · January 28th, 2006, 11:37 PM

Read this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58040

Ok...now. Has anybody tested the difference of AIC & DV100?
Barlow, why did you choose DV100 instead of AIC for your awesome Sundance stuff that got broadcasted on National Cable TV?

Has anybody else compared 24f or 30f footage from the Canon XL-H1 with the Apple Intermediate Codec versus DVCPRO-HD?

This is good info for MAC users who own/use a XL-H1.

- ShannonRawls.com

DV100 = DVCPROHD

Steev Dinkins · January 29th, 2006, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

Read this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58040Barlow, why did you choose DV100 instead of AIC for your awesome Sundance stuff that got broadcasted on National Cable TV?DV100 = DVCPROHD[/size]

I'm assuming he captured to DVCPRO HD as a highly effective means of getting HDV 29.97 24F to 23.98 in one simple capture from tape to drive. The HDVxDV workflow discussed in the thread above is, I gotta say, hack.

Consider the two workflows.

Kona Capture
1. Record to tape on the XL-H1 in the field.
2. Capture via Kona to DVCPRO HD.
3. Edit in FCP and master.

HDVxDV Conversion
1. Record to tape on the Xl-H1 in the field.
2. Capture to .m2t with HDVxDV.
3. Then convert it to AIC or DVCPRO HD.
4. Then conform with Cinema Tools (hack!).
5. Edit in FCP and master.

Barlow Elton · January 29th, 2006, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

Ok...now. Has anybody tested the difference of AIC & DV100?

I'll have to soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

Barlow, why did you choose DV100 instead of AIC for your awesome Sundance stuff that got broadcasted on National Cable TV?

Simplicity. I can play DV100 downconverted to DV in realtime and output firewire on the fly if desired. I had to do a 4x3 crop (other segments were 4x3 24p DVX stuff) and it was faster than realtime writing the file. If I went AIC, I would've had to recompress again to DV for the deliverable.

I had a fast turnaround and I knew DV100 would be the easiest HD route.

Barlow Elton · January 29th, 2006, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steev Dinkins

I'm assuming he captured to DVCPRO HD as a highly effective means of getting HDV 29.97 24F to 23.98 in one simple capture from tape to drive.

Actually, to be honest, my workflow for the actual Sundance piece was to just edit in full 60 field DVCPROHD 1080i. It takes time to extract 24p from the 1080i DV100 in Cinema Tools. Sometimes Cinema Tools guesses the cadence incorrectly from one clip of DV100 to the next. It isn't always exact, unfortunately, but I think I can figure out how to get it right most every time in the future. It's a little bit of trial and error, but getting a true 24p clip in i-frame format FROM the HDV is pretty cool.

A single hour-long tape of raw footage would've taken more than an hour to extract to 24p, and I just didn't have the time, plus I didn't want to worry about introducing pulldown to the 24p for dumping back out to DVCAM. Too much hassle for a quick piece...but I'm glad I did at least THAT one in HD. I now know that the whole SDI H1/Kona thing is an easy alternative to HDV editing.

The real trick now is to get timecode from the H1 along with the SDI. If I can pipe in accurate tc, I might actually be able to capture straight to 23.98 from 24F. I was able to do something like this before from HDCAM 24p to a DV100 24p Blackmagic Decklink preset in FCP about a year ago. It was a Sony 24PsF signal that was recognized by the Blackmagic card...not sure if the H1 outputs a similar signal, but it would be interesting to see.

It seems like FCP should be able to control the camera through firewire HDV protocol, given that the material going out SDI is HDV, but alas, it doesn't work. That's one of my wishes for FCP 6. I don't think a BNC to RS422 cable thingy would actually let you control the H1, but it would at least get the HDV timecode that's needed for batch recapture purposes.

Barlow Elton · January 29th, 2006, 12:57 AM

btw Shannon,

I never thanked you for the link to those cheap BP-945 battery knock-offs.

Sooooo...thank you. They work well!

Gary McClurg · January 29th, 2006, 10:10 AM

Barlow,

Running your footage through the Kona and making it DVCPRO HD... I was wondering how much storage is needed... or basically how many minutes would you get per gig...

Barlow Elton · January 29th, 2006, 10:23 AM

It's about a GB per minute.

Steev Dinkins · January 29th, 2006, 12:13 PM

I just wanted to put this in this thread as well since it's really exactly about this topic.

Quality difference between AIC and DVCPRO HD:

AIC - http://www.holyzoo.com/content/xl-h1...Progressve.jpg
DVCPRO HD - http://www.holyzoo.com/content/xl-h1...ompression.jpg

Shannon Rawls · January 29th, 2006, 12:34 PM

Ok, So barlow....it seems you chose DVCPRO-HD because of time contraints.

Well, seeing that Steev says AIC is also realtime in FCP and looking at the quality differences between the two, then say you had all the time in the world....would you have still chosen DV100 or AIC or what?

I'm assuming you can capture to AIC using your KONA HD-SDI option too, no?

- ShannonRawls.com

Barlow Elton · January 29th, 2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steev Dinkins

Quality difference between AIC and DVCPRO HD:

Very interesting, Steeve. I'll have to do some tests of my own to verify similar results. That said, I wonder how much of it is f'd up QT dv (including DV100) that still does funky (or lack of) color filtering. I've noticed aliasing along diaganol lines, particularly with reds, in DV/DV50/DV100 in QT raw clips I have. I think the QT codec was th culprit in that bad looking aliasing from that initial Tosh website frame grab. It was keyed in FCP, presumably with DV100...and recompressed, so it didn't surprise me that it had some issues. Varicam stuff from the FCP 4.5 Panny demo DVD is full of this. What's funny is I think some of this problem is less noticeable in SDI transfers to the codec, rather than firewire. It doesn't make sense, but this problem has always been noticeable to me, yet the Kona/SDI thing has helped it become less apparent to my eyes.

The truth is the DV codec, all the way up to DV100, is a DCT variant that was developed more than 10 years ago. It's going to be a little harsh compared to newer codecs.

Barlow Elton · January 29th, 2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

Ok, So barlow....it seems you chose DVCPRO-HD because of time contraints.

Well, seeing that Steev says AIC is also realtime in FCP and looking at the quality differences between the two, then say you had all the time in the world....would you have still chosen DV100 or AIC or what?

I'm assuming you can capture to AIC using your KONA HD-SDI option too, no?

- ShannonRawls.com

It's an intriguing option, as is PhotoJPEG at 75%. DV100 is a practical format to edit and deliver in, but if I'm making a film first and foremost, I would definitely consider alternative codecs. I really wish Cineform was part of Quicktime.

That's the great thing about the camera. So many options for where to go in post.

Joseph Josselyn · January 29th, 2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steev Dinkins

Quality difference between AIC and DVCPRO HD:

AIC - http://www.holyzoo.com/content/xl-h1...Progressve.jpg
DVCPRO HD - http://www.holyzoo.com/content/xl-h1...ompression.jpg

The links did not work. I would like to see the difference...
Thank you,
Joseph

Chris Hurd · January 29th, 2007, 04:45 PM

You're responding to a year-old thread. That's probably why the links are no longer active.

Steev Dinkins · January 29th, 2007, 04:59 PM

Yep, I killed that folder when I decided to get the HVX200 instead of the XL-1H. I'll check and see if I still have them around.

Chris Hurd · January 29th, 2007, 05:38 PM

Thanks Steev -- if you still have them, you're welcome to attach them here if you want. Much appreciated,

January 28th, 2006, 11:37 PM	#1
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Apple Intermediate Codec vs. DVCPRO-HD for XL-H1 24f editing Read this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58040 Ok...now. Has anybody tested the difference of AIC & DV100? Barlow, why did you choose DV100 instead of AIC for your awesome Sundance stuff that got broadcasted on National Cable TV? Has anybody else compared 24f or 30f footage from the Canon XL-H1 with the Apple Intermediate Codec versus DVCPRO-HD? This is good info for MAC users who own/use a XL-H1. - ShannonRawls.com DV100 = DVCPROHD __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

January 29th, 2006, 12:13 PM	#8
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	I just wanted to put this in this thread as well since it's really exactly about this topic. Quality difference between AIC and DVCPRO HD: AIC - http://www.holyzoo.com/content/xl-h1...Progressve.jpg DVCPRO HD - http://www.holyzoo.com/content/xl-h1...ompression.jpg __________________ www.holyzoo.com

January 29th, 2006, 12:34 PM	#9
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Ok, So barlow....it seems you chose DVCPRO-HD because of time contraints. Well, seeing that Steev says AIC is also realtime in FCP and looking at the quality differences between the two, then say you had all the time in the world....would you have still chosen DV100 or AIC or what? I'm assuming you can capture to AIC using your KONA HD-SDI option too, no? - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

January 29th, 2007, 04:45 PM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	You're responding to a year-old thread. That's probably why the links are no longer active. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 29th, 2007, 04:59 PM	#14
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	Yep, I killed that folder when I decided to get the HVX200 instead of the XL-1H. I'll check and see if I still have them around. __________________ www.holyzoo.com

January 29th, 2006, 12:57 AM	#5
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	btw Shannon, I never thanked you for the link to those cheap BP-945 battery knock-offs. Sooooo...thank you. They work well!

January 29th, 2006, 10:10 AM	#6
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	Barlow, Running your footage through the Kona and making it DVCPRO HD... I was wondering how much storage is needed... or basically how many minutes would you get per gig...

January 29th, 2006, 10:23 AM	#7
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	It's about a GB per minute.

January 29th, 2007, 05:38 PM	#15
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Thanks Steev -- if you still have them, you're welcome to attach them here if you want. Much appreciated, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!