Best shutter speed to use for 25F at DVinfo.net

Johan Forssblad · February 17th, 2006, 03:16 AM

Hello,
Now when we have so very many shutter speeds to pick from; 1/16000 up to 1/3 second, which one should we pick?

Maybe we have some people here who could share their experiences with me/us. Perhaps you have found what is great for different situations?

I have tried the 25F and I really like it. Our camera will probably be set to 25F most of the time. I used the XL H1 to analyze a problem a customer had in a fast running packaging machine for potatoes. (The machine suddenly dropped a bag without any visible cause.)
I put the camera on tripod and used 1/250 shutter speed and tried 50i and 25F. Then I stepped through the motion frame by frame. What a difference, 25F looks much better! Look for it frame by frame and you will find 50/60i is completely striped when something passes by quickly. (You see the background through the object like looking through a blinder.)

We actually found 4 faults instead of one as we anticipated! We could even see thick metal constructions vibrating which the designer thought should be very stiff.

For this purpose we liked a short shutter speed to freeze the motion in every single frame.

Now, for other more filmic objects, which shutter is good, for instance to film a person running? How much should the legs be unsharp in a single picture to make a nice motion in the film? I think we have to experiment a lot here but somebody of you may already know this. Of course it depends of a lot like focal length, distance etc.

Thankful for any good advice. Sorry if this thread is a bit out of this forum./Johan

Pete Tomov · February 17th, 2006, 06:13 AM

I like 1/75th

Johan Forssblad · February 17th, 2006, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Tomov

I like 1/75th

Thank you Pete,
1/75 is only available in complete manual mode where we can find many close shutter speeds like ... 1/25, 50, 60, 75, 90, 100, 120 ...

In Tv mode a more limited selection like ... 1/12, 25, 50, 120, 250 ... is selectable.

Thanks / Johan

Vincent Rozenberg · February 17th, 2006, 06:53 AM

But why are you shooting in Tv mode?

Johan Forssblad · February 17th, 2006, 07:10 AM

Dear Vincent,
Think it is an old habit from my Canon still cameras. Set the shutter speed you like and then accept the aperture it gives you. But with those cameras I could see which aperture the light meter selected and then make changes if I preferred something else.
As far as I know from the XL H1 we are not shown which aperture we get in Tv mode nor do we se which shutter we get in Av mode (why not, Canon?). In green mode or A mode we see nothing of it at all.
Only in manual mode we see both aperture and shutter. But then you have to adjust them manually to not under- or overexposure.

Conclusion: If you like to see what you get, you cannot use the automatic but rather have to dial in both settings and then see if the light meter thinks it is dark or light. Then you must adjust until satisfied. /Johan

Pete Tomov · February 17th, 2006, 07:15 AM

Then you should probably go with 1/50th.

Johan Forssblad · February 17th, 2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Tomov

Then you should probably go with 1/50th.

Hello Pete,
I think I get the idea! Half of the time is for the exposure and the other half is for "film transport". Like running a camera with real film ... Thanks. /Johan

Vincent Rozenberg · February 17th, 2006, 07:37 AM

Hi Johan, If I may advice you, and since your last post, I think you agree with me on that; go completely manual with your settings. Maybe it'll take some time for you to figure it all out but in the end you will be pleased with the result. A agree with Pet's suggestion; most of the time that I'm shooting, I'll stick to the 1/50th.

David Kinsella · April 22nd, 2006, 11:14 AM

Hello from Norway, I will aquire my new XL H1 very soon and I am wondering if someone has a list of the best "set up" tips for this camera, I am making a 1 hour TV documentary about wild birds that come to a special place in Norway and the people collect their feathers, so most of the shooting is outside, and want the film look, also I have read that it is smart to set the gain to -1/3. I know every project is different but this camera you can fine tune it to such an extreme. I would like some guide lines to get the most out of this cameraand the cine controlpicture settings. I want the total film look. Can any one help me.
Also what is the best type tape to use in the XL H1? On my other documentary projects I have used Maxell tapes in my PD-150.

Yasser Kassana · April 24th, 2006, 03:11 AM

For film, cinematographers use 1/50 of a shutter speed, any lower than that would cause motion stuttering/blur.

Johan Forssblad · April 24th, 2006, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasser Kassana

For film, cinematographers use 1/50 of a shutter speed, any lower than that would cause motion stuttering/blur.

Hello Yasser,
Thank you for your answer. I will do some tests regarding this.
Is it bad to have some motion blur on fast moving things?
Let´s say a person is running and you see his legs. Will it be better to see ultra sharp legs spaced far away by using short exposure (can give a stroboscopic effect I assume) or is it better to see unsharp legs running?

Is the goal to normally have sharp single pictures to get a good film or could it give a better appearence if moving things are intentionally blurred?

Here must be a bunch of experience regarding this. Go ahead ... With the Canon we have a lot of settings to experiment with. Much more than on the good old super 8/16 mm.

One odd thing is your exposure time could be set to a much longer time than the time for one frame i.e. 1/50, 1/60, 1/25 and so on!

Johan Forssblad · April 24th, 2006, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Kinsella

Hello from Norway, I will aquire my new XL H1 very soon and I am wondering if someone has a list of the best "set up" tips for this camera...
Also what is the best type tape to use in the XL H1? On my other documentary projects I have used Maxell tapes in my PD-150.

Dear neighbour David,
Please do a search and you will find many fellows who have already shared their experiences about both subjects!
Good luck with your camera. I recommend to take plenty of test tapes before doing any serious work. It is easy to forget something or change a setting by mistake. Last film i figured out I had forgotten to set the audio correctly during the first three takes. At least I have figured out I will leave the switches at HDV and 25F.
Also it takes some time to get used to the focus, zoom, over exposure of white etc. Especially the focus is critical and you will probably need the assist of peaking or magnifying or a better resoluting monitor ...

Ron Pfister · April 24th, 2006, 03:57 AM

Johan: a 50th of a second will by no means freeze fast moving objects, but is adequate to e.g. render a normal arm movement unblurred at the hand-end. In my experience, shutter speeds above 1/90th result in strobing with fast moving subjects, e.g. the trajectory of a ball across the picture will result in a dotted line.

HTH,

Ron

Richard Hunter · April 24th, 2006, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan Forssblad

Dear Vincent,
Think it is an old habit from my Canon still cameras. Set the shutter speed you like and then accept the aperture it gives you. But with those cameras I could see which aperture the light meter selected and then make changes if I preferred something else.
As far as I know from the XL H1 we are not shown which aperture we get in Tv mode nor do we se which shutter we get in Av mode (why not, Canon?). In green mode or A mode we see nothing of it at all.
Only in manual mode we see both aperture and shutter. But then you have to adjust them manually to not under- or overexposure.

Conclusion: If you like to see what you get, you cannot use the automatic but rather have to dial in both settings and then see if the light meter thinks it is dark or light. Then you must adjust until satisfied. /Johan

Hi Johan. If the H1 exposure controls are similar to those on the XL2, you can see the settings in Tv or Av modes by pressing the Exposure Lock button. You can also tweak the iris and shutter in Lock mode, so I find it very useful to use Tv as a starting point, press Exposure Lock, and then adjust from there.

Richard

Johan Forssblad · April 28th, 2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Hunter

Hi Johan. If the H1 exposure controls are similar to those on the XL2, you can see the settings in Tv or Av modes by pressing the Exposure Lock button. Richard

Dear Richard,
Thank you very much for this valuable information!! I never tried this button in these modes because I started to go completely manual to see both aperture and shutter for good control. That is however a bit time consuming when moving around in the nature with changing light situations from deep dark forests to bright sunlight until the settings are at least inside the meter range markings so you now how much to adjust.

I'm so glad you told me this.
This forum is a fantastic tool to develop our knowledge from a worldwide base of experience. (Did you hear this Chris, thank you too!) /Johan

February 17th, 2006, 03:16 AM	#1
Johan Forssblad Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vittsjö, SKÅNE, SWEDEN Posts: 266	Best shutter speed to use for 25F Hello, Now when we have so very many shutter speeds to pick from; 1/16000 up to 1/3 second, which one should we pick? Maybe we have some people here who could share their experiences with me/us. Perhaps you have found what is great for different situations? I have tried the 25F and I really like it. Our camera will probably be set to 25F most of the time. I used the XL H1 to analyze a problem a customer had in a fast running packaging machine for potatoes. (The machine suddenly dropped a bag without any visible cause.) I put the camera on tripod and used 1/250 shutter speed and tried 50i and 25F. Then I stepped through the motion frame by frame. What a difference, 25F looks much better! Look for it frame by frame and you will find 50/60i is completely striped when something passes by quickly. (You see the background through the object like looking through a blinder.) We actually found 4 faults instead of one as we anticipated! We could even see thick metal constructions vibrating which the designer thought should be very stiff. For this purpose we liked a short shutter speed to freeze the motion in every single frame. Now, for other more filmic objects, which shutter is good, for instance to film a person running? How much should the legs be unsharp in a single picture to make a nice motion in the film? I think we have to experiment a lot here but somebody of you may already know this. Of course it depends of a lot like focal length, distance etc. Thankful for any good advice. Sorry if this thread is a bit out of this forum./Johan

April 22nd, 2006, 11:14 AM	#9
David Kinsella New Boot Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5	Canon XL H1 Total cine control tips Hello from Norway, I will aquire my new XL H1 very soon and I am wondering if someone has a list of the best "set up" tips for this camera, I am making a 1 hour TV documentary about wild birds that come to a special place in Norway and the people collect their feathers, so most of the shooting is outside, and want the film look, also I have read that it is smart to set the gain to -1/3. I know every project is different but this camera you can fine tune it to such an extreme. I would like some guide lines to get the most out of this cameraand the cine controlpicture settings. I want the total film look. Can any one help me. Also what is the best type tape to use in the XL H1? On my other documentary projects I have used Maxell tapes in my PD-150.

April 24th, 2006, 03:57 AM	#13
Ron Pfister Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Basel area, Switzerland Posts: 285	Johan: a 50th of a second will by no means freeze fast moving objects, but is adequate to e.g. render a normal arm movement unblurred at the hand-end. In my experience, shutter speeds above 1/90th result in strobing with fast moving subjects, e.g. the trajectory of a ball across the picture will result in a dotted line. HTH, Ron __________________ Ronald P. Pfister halimedia - digital solutions and services www.halimedia.com

February 17th, 2006, 06:13 AM	#2
Pete Tomov Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 106	I like 1/75th

February 17th, 2006, 06:53 AM	#4
Vincent Rozenberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands Posts: 475	But why are you shooting in Tv mode?

February 17th, 2006, 07:10 AM	#5
Johan Forssblad Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vittsjö, SKÅNE, SWEDEN Posts: 266	Dear Vincent, Think it is an old habit from my Canon still cameras. Set the shutter speed you like and then accept the aperture it gives you. But with those cameras I could see which aperture the light meter selected and then make changes if I preferred something else. As far as I know from the XL H1 we are not shown which aperture we get in Tv mode nor do we se which shutter we get in Av mode (why not, Canon?). In green mode or A mode we see nothing of it at all. Only in manual mode we see both aperture and shutter. But then you have to adjust them manually to not under- or overexposure. Conclusion: If you like to see what you get, you cannot use the automatic but rather have to dial in both settings and then see if the light meter thinks it is dark or light. Then you must adjust until satisfied. /Johan

February 17th, 2006, 07:15 AM	#6
Pete Tomov Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 106	Then you should probably go with 1/50th.

February 17th, 2006, 07:37 AM	#8
Vincent Rozenberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands Posts: 475	Hi Johan, If I may advice you, and since your last post, I think you agree with me on that; go completely manual with your settings. Maybe it'll take some time for you to figure it all out but in the end you will be pleased with the result. A agree with Pet's suggestion; most of the time that I'm shooting, I'll stick to the 1/50th.

April 24th, 2006, 03:11 AM	#10
Yasser Kassana Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK Posts: 223	For film, cinematographers use 1/50 of a shutter speed, any lower than that would cause motion stuttering/blur.