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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old March 11th, 2006, 01:20 AM   #1
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60i vs 24?

Has anyone field tested different looks on 60i and 24f? I'm curious what the different looks end result at. I know 24 is a progressive system, versus the interlaced 60iI'm just curious for actual shooters real results as seen by the naked eye, not some Canon press release. What I'm curious about, is 60i anything close to a more "film-look"?
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Old March 11th, 2006, 01:51 AM   #2
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24P was dveloped because 60i was too videoish. 24p has the same frame rate of film, and that is what it was developed for-- to give a more filmic look.
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Old March 11th, 2006, 01:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Schreiber
Has anyone field tested different looks on 60i and 24f?
Yes, this has beeen done extensively by many people with the Panasonic DVX100 and Canon XL2. The distinctive motion signatures of these various frame rates (don't forget 30fps) are no different in High Definition. Hope this helps,
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Old March 11th, 2006, 05:51 AM   #4
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maybe it's just that I'm on a Mac and so getting 24f is a bit of a hassle -
But,
the 24f I have aquired so far, pales in comparison to the 60i interms of resolution.
(I really hope that I am doing something wrong and have refrained from making any judgments)
thanks,
John
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Old March 11th, 2006, 11:23 AM   #5
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John are you monitoring tests through a computer or a monitor? I think there is still some funy business going on with computer capture of 24F footage (at least on a mac) but on a HD monitor I don't think there is a huge difference between the two formats. (though I will agree that there is higher resolution on 60i)
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Old March 11th, 2006, 08:02 PM   #6
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Thanks Nick -
I am using a variety of monitors - Dell 24" & a Cinema display -
I think it must be the way I am translating the footage at this point -
I have tried a variety of ways sugested, but am doing it half assed. The 60i looks so good right off that what I get from the 24f translation hasn't been worth the time. Hopefully Apple will release support for 24f soon
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Old March 11th, 2006, 08:14 PM   #7
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At the HDExpo hopefully one of the Canon guys wasn't trying to make me happy... but he said at NAB he wasn't sure if will be an update or FCP 6 that will support both the camera and the JVC...
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Old March 17th, 2006, 04:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Benton
But, the 24f I have aquired so far, pales in comparison to the 60i interms of resolution.
Of course it does -- 24F typically has less vertical resolution.

And, it is not really really a "progressive" format. It is a "half-field interlaced" format.

Specifically, each 24F, 1080-line frame, is generated by a "weave" deinterlacer from 1080-line interlaced video. Weave is very different than "bob" where the V. rez. is cut in half. Clearly, if only a single field of INTERLACED video were used, V. rez. would be much less than 540-lines.

Depending on motion -- weave (on 1080 Interlaced capture) will yield up to the same V. rez. (about 700-lines) as does 1080i60. It can fall to about 540-lines. (Confirmed by Wilt's tests at about 540-lines.)

The same process -- and likely the same DSP -- as used by Sony for its CineFrame modes. The difference is that canon is clocking the system at 48Hz thereby generating "CF" with a constant frame timebase. This is a much better system.

If Canon is ramping-up Sony's 1440x1080 CCD production look for a Z2 with these CCDs and 48Hz clocking at NAB. Likely, at just under $10K.
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Old March 17th, 2006, 04:13 PM   #9
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Such negativity.
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Old March 17th, 2006, 04:33 PM   #10
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Being a technical person (I can replace a light bulb) I have this theory about a possible way to get a bit higher resolution from an interlaced chip and I think the H1's doing just that.
Now to test my theory, can someone take a 24f full res still image with really fast shutter,maybe even 1/16000th, via the HD-SDI out?
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Old March 17th, 2006, 04:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McClurg
At the HDExpo hopefully one of the Canon guys wasn't trying to make me happy... but he said at NAB he wasn't sure if will be an update or FCP 6 that will support both the camera and the JVC...
Apple has had Canon's H1 for testing for several months already. They told Canon they were going to release an update and then they mysteriously went silent.

Two things to consider:

1) Panasonic has been pumping money into Apple and they are obligated to only support Panasonic and P2 for a period of time. Hence no JVC or Canon support.

2) Apple is going to fleece it's JVC and Canon customers by forcing them to buy an upgrade to FCP 6.0 even though Panny customers got a free update.

This all cooincides with Panasonic's massive PR marketing campaign to tout DVProHD and continue its FUD on HDV.
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Old March 17th, 2006, 06:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Tomov
Being a technical person (I can replace a light bulb) I have this theory about a possible way to get a bit higher resolution from an interlaced chip and I think the H1's doing just that.
Yes -- if row-pair summation is done external to the CCDs -- they can turn it off.

However, given the measurd 540-line V. Rez. -- the same as Sony's CF -- I don't think Canon is doing anything special.

Or, if the CCDs can be run at half-rate, or less, which is 30Hz or less, a 1080-line progressive image can be obtained. Obviously, they are NOT doing this.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 07:55 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
However, given the measurd 540-line V. Rez. -- the same as Sony's CF -- I don't think Canon is doing anything special.
I've seen a test that clearly shows about 800-lines vertical res and even more horizontal.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 02:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Tomov
I've seen a test that clearly shows about 800-lines vertical res and even more horizontal.
I am not doubting you! Can you point me to where you saw this. The ONLY published numbers are 800x540.
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Old March 19th, 2006, 08:16 AM   #15
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It was somewhere on this board, an article about a film out of something.I don't remember exactly but here's a link to a jpeg version:
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7...td2dlow4yn.jpg
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