Firestore fs-4 with XLH1?

Chris Hurd · April 30th, 2006, 09:17 AM

Could it have been Matt McEwen that he was referring you to? The way Canon's PD manager explained it to me made perfect sense... that Frame mode is transparent to the FS-C, that the FS-C wouldn't care if the incoming video was Frame mode or not. It's just a bit for bit copy of what goes to tape (or would have gone to tape if there's no tape in the cam). Meaning that yes, it's fully compatible with Frame mode video. But I would like to hear Focus verify that for us.

Pete Bauer · April 30th, 2006, 11:57 AM

Could have been Matt, but really not sure.

Anyway, it really is muddy. The XL H1 manual is a bit unclear, but I think from earlier discussions we've had on the forum about Frame Mode support in products like Cineform, it appears that the H1 manual is trying to tell us that during playback from 24F tape, the 1394 port sends out a pulldown 60i, but during live recording, the signal to both tape and the 1394 port is 24fps progressive. If correct, I could see how that 24p m2t data stream could be a problem for a device expecting a 60i signal...just as the existing HDV tape decks don't handle this variant of the HDV format. Cineform, for instance, updated their software to read the Canon 24F and 30F data streams.

The current Firestores ask you to pick a format from the list on the LCD...if your 1394 output doesn't match the spec, I don't know what happens. Since I'm not a Firestore user, can someone who uses an FS-4Pro confirm that it cannot handle 24F? If it can't, that fits with the discussion I had with Focus and leads me to believe that they haven't added explicit support. I do hope that is incorrect, though!

Lauri Kettunen · May 1st, 2006, 12:28 AM

Pete, Chris,

Maybe the problem is in how different people understand word "compatible". If Canon says the FS-C and XL H1 are not compatible, they likely say that all details do not work as they should. And particularly, they mean the HDV frame mode playback from FS-C to XL H1 is not available -which applies to the CitiDISK HDVas well. But as Chris seems to suggest, the other way there are no problems in storing the frame mode signal from XL H1 to the recorder -which again, is the case with CitiDISK HDV.

We've lost standards in the modern world. The screws from one company do not fit properly with the bolts of another one. It's time consuming to try to figure out, how things work out in reality. And one can't rely on the ads; They never explain the critical issues, and in this sense, even Canon is not fully reliable -which is sad. The good thing is that in the modern world there are forums like this one, in which people can share their experience.

Robert Sanders · May 1st, 2006, 03:20 PM

I can't believe Focus doesn't have someone on these boards moderating disinformation about their products.

Chris Hurd · May 1st, 2006, 06:30 PM

They do, typically it's Matt McEwen, but he probably hasn't quite recovered from Vegas yet. NAB was grueling for everyone. Focus was busy every time I went by there.

Jason Price · May 4th, 2006, 04:20 PM

Gentleman. According to TapeWorks Texas inc.'s sources (mainly our Canon USA Representative), you are correct, the FS-4 is not wholly compatible with the Canon XL-H1 and its various record modes, at this time...However
Canon has been in touch with Focus regarding this incompatibility and are providing a solution. All current owners of the FS-4 will be able to purchase an upgrade from their local Focus Enhancements Dealer. No word yet on the cost or availability.
With TapeWorks Texas inc. promotion that includes the FS-4 with the purchase a XL-H1, Canon will actually be shipping this upgrade with the HDD DTE recorder to TapeWorks Texas inc. who will in turn ship it out to our clients at NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE.
Feel free to contact TapeWorks Texas inc. toll free regarding this information
@866.827.3489. Ask for Scott or Jason

April 30th, 2006, 09:17 AM	#16
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Could it have been Matt McEwen that he was referring you to? The way Canon's PD manager explained it to me made perfect sense... that Frame mode is transparent to the FS-C, that the FS-C wouldn't care if the incoming video was Frame mode or not. It's just a bit for bit copy of what goes to tape (or would have gone to tape if there's no tape in the cam). Meaning that yes, it's fully compatible with Frame mode video. But I would like to hear Focus verify that for us. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 30th, 2006, 11:57 AM	#17
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Could have been Matt, but really not sure. Anyway, it really is muddy. The XL H1 manual is a bit unclear, but I think from earlier discussions we've had on the forum about Frame Mode support in products like Cineform, it appears that the H1 manual is trying to tell us that during playback from 24F tape, the 1394 port sends out a pulldown 60i, but during live recording, the signal to both tape and the 1394 port is 24fps progressive. If correct, I could see how that 24p m2t data stream could be a problem for a device expecting a 60i signal...just as the existing HDV tape decks don't handle this variant of the HDV format. Cineform, for instance, updated their software to read the Canon 24F and 30F data streams. The current Firestores ask you to pick a format from the list on the LCD...if your 1394 output doesn't match the spec, I don't know what happens. Since I'm not a Firestore user, can someone who uses an FS-4Pro confirm that it cannot handle 24F? If it can't, that fits with the discussion I had with Focus and leads me to believe that they haven't added explicit support. I do hope that is incorrect, though! __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

May 1st, 2006, 03:20 PM	#19
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	I can't believe Focus doesn't have someone on these boards moderating disinformation about their products. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

May 1st, 2006, 06:30 PM	#20
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	They do, typically it's Matt McEwen, but he probably hasn't quite recovered from Vegas yet. NAB was grueling for everyone. Focus was busy every time I went by there. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 4th, 2006, 04:20 PM	#21
Jason Price Sponsor: TapeWorks Texas Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 16	FS-4 and XL-H1 Gentleman. According to TapeWorks Texas inc.'s sources (mainly our Canon USA Representative), you are correct, the FS-4 is not wholly compatible with the Canon XL-H1 and its various record modes, at this time...However Canon has been in touch with Focus regarding this incompatibility and are providing a solution. All current owners of the FS-4 will be able to purchase an upgrade from their local Focus Enhancements Dealer. No word yet on the cost or availability. With TapeWorks Texas inc. promotion that includes the FS-4 with the purchase a XL-H1, Canon will actually be shipping this upgrade with the HDD DTE recorder to TapeWorks Texas inc. who will in turn ship it out to our clients at NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE. Feel free to contact TapeWorks Texas inc. toll free regarding this information @866.827.3489. Ask for Scott or Jason

May 1st, 2006, 12:28 AM	#18
Lauri Kettunen Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kangasala, Finland Posts: 445	Pete, Chris, Maybe the problem is in how different people understand word "compatible". If Canon says the FS-C and XL H1 are not compatible, they likely say that all details do not work as they should. And particularly, they mean the HDV frame mode playback from FS-C to XL H1 is not available -which applies to the CitiDISK HDVas well. But as Chris seems to suggest, the other way there are no problems in storing the frame mode signal from XL H1 to the recorder -which again, is the case with CitiDISK HDV. We've lost standards in the modern world. The screws from one company do not fit properly with the bolts of another one. It's time consuming to try to figure out, how things work out in reality. And one can't rely on the ads; They never explain the critical issues, and in this sense, even Canon is not fully reliable -which is sad. The good thing is that in the modern world there are forums like this one, in which people can share their experience.