How to avoid ghost/trail/blend frames? at DVinfo.net

George Strother · June 2nd, 2006, 03:26 PM

I am considering buying the XL H1 and have found a lot on this forum that has been helpful.

I have not found if there is a way to avoid the wierd flash/ghost/blend/grey/shadow frames that appear in some of the H1 footage I have seen.

The clip passengertesth264 is fantastic footage, but several of the scenes have these strange frames in the faster motion that looks like a grey shadow stuck to the trailing edge of the moving object. It is very apparent in the shot of the train pulling away from the station.

Are there settings to use/avoid to eliminate this effect? Is there a name for the artifact?

This must have been discussed on the forum, but my search attempts have not found the answer.

Steven Dempsey · June 2nd, 2006, 03:55 PM

George, this is a result of post production processing. None of what you have mentioned is inherent in footage from the camera. The workflow to delivering final edit is still fairly convoluted and in its infancy, especially with the limited codec support on the PC side.

At NAB, all of the major companies have announced that they will be fully supporting the XLH1 so the current crop of growing pains will be resolved.

Harry Bromley-Davenport · June 2nd, 2006, 04:21 PM

Perhaps you are looking at the material on an LCD monitor. My Dell 24" monitor tends to leave a slight ghost image for one frame.

Harry.

Daniel Epstein · June 2nd, 2006, 05:02 PM

You might be seeing some footage which has the NR1 on. While I can't be sure I thought I saw some trails when I played with that setting on the Custom Presets. Of course if you are examining web movies for artifacts you will see things which are not in the original. Also someone could have been using a slow shutter speed which would cause blur on objects in motion. A combination of all of the above. Are you looking frame by frame or normal speed? The only way to really know is to see the footage in its original recorded form.

Oleg Kalyan · June 2nd, 2006, 10:46 PM

George, Thanks for your compliment on "PasengerH264" H1 14x manual footage. There is no trailing on original footage, I can assure you on that. Footage was shot at 25F and has frame blending on slow down, it's more visible on faster moving objects.

The only trailing I've noticed in tests is when you use NR1 function.

Steven Dempsey · June 2nd, 2006, 10:58 PM

Yeah, stay away from NR1. If you must use Noise Reduction, use NR2. It's much more forgiving.

Chris Hurd · June 2nd, 2006, 11:34 PM

That's right. NR1 can improve the signal to noise ratio, but at the cost of creating trailing after-images (or ghosting). You won't get that gremlin with NR2.

George Strother · June 3rd, 2006, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Kalyan

George, Thanks for your compliment on "PasengerH264" H1 14x manual footage. There is no trailing on original footage, I can assure you on that. Footage was shot at 25F and has frame blending on slow down, it's more visible on faster moving objects.

The only trailing I've noticed in tests is when you use NR1 function.

Oleg - Beautiful footage. Is the "drop shadow like" grey area following some frames of the departing train, frame blending as implemented by this camera?

John Richard · June 4th, 2006, 07:19 AM

Canopus Edius is a PC side NLE that already has presets that work for capture & edit of the H1 24f footage. There is a free-trial of Edius on their website. You do not have to have any of their proprietary capture boards to use their editor. You can use a standard OCHI - firewire connection for capture. Just another option for the PC side.

Chris Hurd · June 4th, 2006, 07:49 AM

Canopus has long been a favorite of mine. Not to take anything away from the rest of the PC side, but they do make excellent NLE solutions for anybody choosing to go PC instead of Mac.

June 2nd, 2006, 03:26 PM	#1
George Strother Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 204	How to avoid ghost/trail/blend frames? I am considering buying the XL H1 and have found a lot on this forum that has been helpful. I have not found if there is a way to avoid the wierd flash/ghost/blend/grey/shadow frames that appear in some of the H1 footage I have seen. The clip passengertesth264 is fantastic footage, but several of the scenes have these strange frames in the faster motion that looks like a grey shadow stuck to the trailing edge of the moving object. It is very apparent in the shot of the train pulling away from the station. Are there settings to use/avoid to eliminate this effect? Is there a name for the artifact? This must have been discussed on the forum, but my search attempts have not found the answer.

June 2nd, 2006, 03:55 PM	#2
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	George, this is a result of post production processing. None of what you have mentioned is inherent in footage from the camera. The workflow to delivering final edit is still fairly convoluted and in its infancy, especially with the limited codec support on the PC side. At NAB, all of the major companies have announced that they will be fully supporting the XLH1 so the current crop of growing pains will be resolved. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

June 2nd, 2006, 10:58 PM	#6
Steven Dempsey Disjecta Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 937	Yeah, stay away from NR1. If you must use Noise Reduction, use NR2. It's much more forgiving. __________________ Try my Digital Therapy: http://www.pinelakefilms.com/digital_therapy.html Films on ExposureRoom: http://exposureroom.com/members/disjecta.aspx/videos/

June 2nd, 2006, 11:34 PM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	That's right. NR1 can improve the signal to noise ratio, but at the cost of creating trailing after-images (or ghosting). You won't get that gremlin with NR2. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

June 4th, 2006, 07:19 AM	#9
John Richard Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Incline Village, Nevada Posts: 604	PC NLE Option for H1 24f Canopus Edius is a PC side NLE that already has presets that work for capture & edit of the H1 24f footage. There is a free-trial of Edius on their website. You do not have to have any of their proprietary capture boards to use their editor. You can use a standard OCHI - firewire connection for capture. Just another option for the PC side.

June 2nd, 2006, 04:21 PM	#3
Harry Bromley-Davenport Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: LA CA Posts: 317	Perhaps you are looking at the material on an LCD monitor. My Dell 24" monitor tends to leave a slight ghost image for one frame. Harry.

June 2nd, 2006, 05:02 PM	#4
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	You might be seeing some footage which has the NR1 on. While I can't be sure I thought I saw some trails when I played with that setting on the Custom Presets. Of course if you are examining web movies for artifacts you will see things which are not in the original. Also someone could have been using a slow shutter speed which would cause blur on objects in motion. A combination of all of the above. Are you looking frame by frame or normal speed? The only way to really know is to see the footage in its original recorded form.

June 2nd, 2006, 10:46 PM	#5
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	George, Thanks for your compliment on "PasengerH264" H1 14x manual footage. There is no trailing on original footage, I can assure you on that. Footage was shot at 25F and has frame blending on slow down, it's more visible on faster moving objects. The only trailing I've noticed in tests is when you use NR1 function.

June 4th, 2006, 07:49 AM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Canopus has long been a favorite of mine. Not to take anything away from the rest of the PC side, but they do make excellent NLE solutions for anybody choosing to go PC instead of Mac. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!