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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old June 19th, 2006, 07:06 PM   #1
Starway Pictures
 
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WTF Apple?

How much longer does Apple think XLH1 and JVC owners are willing to wait for a very simple FCP update to support 24F and JVC's 24P?

This is borderline ridiculous. Both of these cameras have been on the market for almost a year.

Did Panasonic buy an embargo on updates to competitor cameras or something?
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Old June 19th, 2006, 07:19 PM   #2
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Avid gives Apple The Finger

Avid Xpress 5.5, which releases this week, supports Canon 24F. I guess Steve and Company have been too busy making those oh so clever 'Get A Mac' Ads to bother helping out their customers. And by the way, I am a bitter Mac user as well.
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Old June 19th, 2006, 07:31 PM   #3
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I'm a huge Apple fan. I have have Apple stickers on my car!

I cannot imagine editing on another platform, nor do I wish to do so. But this is really getting ridiculous. We're not talking about a new platform here. We're talking about incorporating pieces of technology that Apple already produces (DVHS Capture and MPEG Streamclip) and folding those into FCP's capture utility. We're only talking about a pulldown conversion script!

Which is why I believe there's some politicing going on behind the scenes at One Infinity Loop. And because Apple is so firmly in bed with Panasonic and Sony I have to believe that has something to do with it.

So listen up Mr. Jannard. If you want Apple to support RED you better make sure there are enough zeroes on the end of that check otherwise they'll get to it whenever they frickin' feel like it.

Sorry. I'm just cranky about this.
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Old June 20th, 2006, 08:09 AM   #4
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You guys may be overlooking issues between Canon an Apple or issues
that may be Canon's alone that are keeping it from happening.
I heard a rumor that Canon had not yet
patented their 24F codec. It is possible that until they do Apple's
hands are tied. That is just one possibility. At NAB both thought
24F support would be happening with the next edition of FCP.
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Old June 20th, 2006, 09:26 AM   #5
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According to an Apple source at the LAFCPUG forum, the delays are purely for quality testing to make sure it works right. FCP has very good native HDV support and they're keen to keep it that way.

Graeme
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Old June 20th, 2006, 09:53 AM   #6
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Heard that the support for the H1 24f will not come in a patch, but in the next version slated for release in August 06.

In addition to the Avid, Canopus/Grass Valley has Edius which supports the 24f fine since version 3.61. You do not have to buy any boards either as Edius will run/capture/output on a fast computer in standard OCHI mode. So if you're in a bind right now and have an Apple/Intel box then Edius would get you there.
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Old June 20th, 2006, 11:30 AM   #7
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Quality testing takes almost a year? Canon reps said they shipped a black box unit to Apple long before the camera came out. If RED can build a 4k camera from the ground up in less time I think Apple can get off its ass and release an update and not gouge us for another $500.
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Old June 20th, 2006, 11:36 AM   #8
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Well, giving Apple it's due, adding features to FCP takes time, and FCP is no simple app that you can just put new code in and make it work like that. Apple probably didn't budget in advance time to add these new cameras, so had to make time to do so, and then, to check it works out ok etc. With the move to Intel, Apple have been very busy of late....

Graeme
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Old June 20th, 2006, 02:26 PM   #9
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I gave up on Apple producing this software patch in February. Since then I have been using a workflow which captures out of the SDI port and then does a transfer through MPEG streamclip. Although it does involve the one step more (MPEG Streamclip) it works just fine and you get the benefit of editing in DVCProHD.

I'm half way through cutting a low budget ($200,000) small feature with it and the picture looks great.

If you want the workflow you can email me direct via this forum, or go to the FCP LA Users group website where it was posted as a "Tip of the Week" a couple of weeks ago.

There are methods other than mine, but this one works for me.

Apple has never shown much in the way of customer care in my view, despite the excellent machines and software.

Best

Harry
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Old June 20th, 2006, 08:58 PM   #10
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I want to remind everyone that Canon is the one who made the camera record the way it does. Apple probably will make little if any additional money adding this feature to Final Cut. Look at what Canon has been able to deliver in terms of HD accesories for the camera since it came out. Almost nothing of consequence. My guess is Apple will deliver the 24F compatibility faster than Canon will deliver the Wide Angle Lens.
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Old June 20th, 2006, 09:37 PM   #11
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Boo-Hoo poor Apple.

H.
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Old June 21st, 2006, 02:07 PM   #12
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Funny, because it seemed like Apple bent over backwards to support the DVX once it was released. And Panasonic took it upon themselves to create a new version of DV (24P 2:3:3:2).
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Old June 21st, 2006, 02:28 PM   #13
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Yes, but they were not in a big intel transition at the time :-)

Graeme
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Old June 21st, 2006, 03:46 PM   #14
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Apple leaving pro-market for Ipod-market? That's what I think anyway!

"If you want the workflow you can email me direct via this forum, or go to the FCP LA Users group website where it was posted as a "Tip of the Week" a couple of weeks ago."

Where can I find the "tip of the week"? Really interested!
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Old June 21st, 2006, 09:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Sanders
Funny, because it seemed like Apple bent over backwards to support the DVX once it was released. And Panasonic took it upon themselves to create a new version of DV (24P 2:3:3:2).
Apple had mediocre support for DVX 24p. They did allow timeline on-the-fly pulldown removal for 24pA, but they made you go through the goofy cinema tools process to remove pulldown from 24p 2:3 footage. Compare that to Vegas, which did bend over backwards, and they implemented pulldown removal on the fly for either system. Vegas' 24p support is hands down WAY better than Apple's.

FCP has no support for 25p and 50p from the EU HVX, and no pulldown removal at all for 1080/24p from the US HVX. Apple doesn't support MXF files and makes you go through a goofy import process to convert the file formats before you can use them. Frankly EDIUS has much, much better HVX support than FCP does.

JVC HD1 and HD10 owners had to wait two years for Apple to implement support for 720/30P HDV. And they've been waiting almost a full year for 720/24p HDV.

Fact of the matter is, Apple isn't all that quick. The HVX does have some support, but mainly because of FCP 4.5, where all the hard work was done almost two years ago, and which gave them a very unique position in the market as basically the premiere desktop HD editing solution.

If you were Apple, seriously -- how much more is there to gain by bending over backwards to support these new formats from JVC and Canon? Especially because Lumiere is providing a patch to tide the HD100 owners over.

It's not some big grand conspiracy, it's a matter of sorting their priorities. Unfortunately, their priorities and XLH1/HD100 owners' priorities are not aligned right now.

If it *were* a grand conspiracy, it could go something like this:
---------------------------
JVC and Canon sales are tiny compared to Panasonic and Sony, and Panasonic and Sony have announced a new AVC-HD format, one that they clearly intend to have replace HDV, and JVC has already been announced as that they will not be producing AVC-HD products. JVC is trapped in a now dead-end format, losing money hand over fist and Matsushita is looking to unload them. Matsushita's ex-chairman, a staunch defender of JVC, just left the company, which means JVC's largest ally in the parent company is now gone. (see Reuters news story). So if you were Apple -- how much effort would you expend to support JVC's proprietary 24p? And whither Canon? JVC probably sells five HD100's for every Canon XLH1 out there. How much effort will Apple expend to support Canon's proprietary format, when there aren't even any decks on the horizon?

Put in terms of return on investment, just how much does Apple have to gain here? Or, instead, should Apple target their available development resources towards AVC-HD, which is poised to be the heir apparent to DV and is going to receive a massive push into consumer product (and consumer product will probably produce at least 10, if not 100 sales for every "prosumer" sale).

Heartless, yes. But hey, it's a business, right? Support AVC-HD with its potential millions of sales, or spend effort to support 1,000 XLH1 customers in the world, or 10,000 JVC customers when the handwriting on the wall doesn't look too good for JVC?

-------------------

Anyway, that's how the "grand conspiracy" could be shaping up. And I'd find that a whole lot more likely than that "panasonic is paying apple under the table to keep them from supporting JVC and Canon." Apple's said that they will eventually support those formats. And they'll get to it, eventually. Doesn't seem like it's been all that high a priority for them. But if you want someone who seems to care, someone who put the XLH1 and HD100 as very high priority, someone who went out of their way to support both formats, someone who aggressively wants those customers, then look to EDIUS. Canopus is hungry. They are actively adding support. And yes they're on the PC, so get an Intel Mac and run Bootcamp... not an ideal solution, but neither is waiting and waiting for something from Apple that may not happen right away, and may be months away. EDIUS wants the business, they want the customers. Apple doesn't seem to care that much or they'd make it a higher priority. (but they have announced that they will do it, and they've shown it as a technology demo, so it's coming sometime).
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