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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old May 8th, 2007, 12:55 PM   #1
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i = 50 f1 = 30 f2 = 25f?

Hello I have the pal version of this camera and having read the poor manual, i have ask a stupid question, is this correct..

f1 = 30f
f2 = 25f

why is the manual so poorly produced for a £6000 camera?

When would you choose the 30f over 25f? is it just for fast moving objects? are there any other benefits to using the f1 30f setting? looks no different through a hd monitor.
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Old May 8th, 2007, 09:54 PM   #2
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30f I believe is a through back to us folks here in NTSC land, that way they only have to change to settings, here if you want to have a cool frame look like 24p but you know you'e going to air it on tv (which is inharently 30segmented frames or 60i) you can shoot 30f instead and save your self a step in post.

The problem I don't think is the camera so much as it the stupid NTSC system (which one day we may finally be rid of (not holding my breath though)

As far as manuals go I'll be honest dude, I've read manuals for 100,000 dollar or 60000 pounds (don't know how to make the symbol sorry) that are equally as poorly produced. But it seems like someone is always making a how to book for each camera. If there's not one for the canon yet I know exactly what I'm going to start doing in my free time.
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Old May 9th, 2007, 02:02 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Lunn View Post
Hello I have the pal version of this camera and having read the piss poor manual, i have ask a stupid question, is this correct..

f1 = 30f
f2 = 25f
The PAL version gives you only 25f no matter which position it's set to, f1/f2 = 25f.
You have to upgrade the firmware ($500 I think) to get PAL/NTSC, this will give you 60i, 50i, 30f, 25f and 24f
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Old May 9th, 2007, 10:55 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Lunn View Post
is this correct..

F1 = 30f
F2 = 25f
No, sorry that's not correct. As noted by Per Johan above, it's really:

F1 = 25f
F2 = 25f

Then if you buy the 60i upgrade, and switch the camera to 60i mode, it becomes:

F1 = 30f
F2 = 24f

...with the i mode in that case being 60i of course, instead of 50i. Hope this helps,
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Old May 9th, 2007, 11:46 AM   #5
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so for us that have a pal machine its just 50i or 25f? bloody hell it says on the website, use 30f for real clarity when shooting fast moving objects. How we achieve this without 30f? and so is the button f2 redundant?
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Old May 9th, 2007, 12:47 PM   #6
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Andy, it says that on the Canon USA web site. I don't think it's on the Canon UK site.

The F2 selection on the frame rate switch is not redundant. It's necessary for those 50i camera owners who choose to buy the 60i upgrade, because they need that F2 setting in order to select 24F. Not every 50i camera owner will choose to buy the 60i upgrade, but every XL H1 that's sold in the 50i market has the capability to be upgraded, and therefore the F2 setting is present on each one of them. Hope this helps,
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Old May 9th, 2007, 01:03 PM   #7
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for real clarity when shooting fast moving objects. How we achieve this without 30f?
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Old May 9th, 2007, 03:57 PM   #8
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You dont need it - the 'clarity' comparison is between the two NTSC options of 24F padded with pulldown to conform to a 60i NTSC display rate versus 30F where theres no need to pad it when displayed on NTSC devices.

25F on euro models is already half the 50i PAL display rate, so is functionaly equivalent to 30F with the NTSC unit (in terms of being progressive footage that doesnt need padded out to match the PAL display standard its targeted at)

if you need the equivalent of 24F from the PAL model then all you need to do is take the 25F and slow it down by the appropriate percentage on your NLE and adjust the audio to suit.
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Old May 9th, 2007, 04:08 PM   #9
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if you need the equivalent of 24F from the PAL model then all you need to do is take the 25F and slow it down by the appropriate percentage on your NLE and adjust the audio to suit.
wouldnt that be speeded up to reach 30f? not slowed down to 24f. Surly to capture more motion and keep 'the film look' it would have to be speeded up, am i getting this wrong?

ps. i have a pal unmoddified xl h1.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 07:33 AM   #10
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Been advised...

Hi Chris. I have been advised that I can get rid of pan stutter by switching up to 60i mode. When I switch to F2 on my H1 the EVF shows no change, I presume this camera (PAL) has not been upgraded. I can not find any mention of 60i in my manual or in the menu on the camera itself.

Upgrading it to 60i capability, is this something any Canon dealer can do?
Thanks
Dave


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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
Andy, it says that on the Canon USA web site. I don't think it's on the Canon UK site.

The F2 selection on the frame rate switch is not redundant. It's necessary for those 50i camera owners who choose to buy the 60i upgrade, because they need that F2 setting in order to select 24F. Not every 50i camera owner will choose to buy the 60i upgrade, but every XL H1 that's sold in the 50i market has the capability to be upgraded, and therefore the F2 setting is present on each one of them. Hope this helps,
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Old December 10th, 2007, 07:50 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Dave Gosley View Post
Hi Chris. I have been advised that I can get rid of pan stutter by switching up to 60i mode. When I switch to F2 on my H1 the EVF shows no change, I presume this camera (PAL) has not been upgraded. I can not find any mention of 60i in my manual or in the menu on the camera itself.
If this is a PAL model, you have 50i mode, please re-read this thread and you'll find that switchning from 25f to 50i let you get rid of the stuttering.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 03:52 AM   #12
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"If anyone can Canon can", well not quite...

It used to be the advertising slogan for Canon copiers "If anyone can Canon can". Well yesterday I took the extremely helpful information everyone on this page gave and tried to put it into effect only to find that there are times when "Canon can't".

I live in Alicante, Spain and believed that it was likely a request to upgrade this camera might be pushing it with Canon Spain so I phoned around Canon UK. All day I got pushed around - pilar to post until I finally got through to someone who said "can't do it mate - you'll have to buy an upgrade camera body". I told him flatly that was not the case so he went and got a technician. He told me "can be done but we need the camera here in front of a techy before we can quote you how much for doing it at 60 per hour - plus the parts". I told him the camera had done less than two hours recording and is in pristine condition - please give me a quote now. Surely, the procedure is in their manual, they know exactly what has to be done how to do it and how long it will take. It's so hard and fast you could even put it in a straight forward upgrade price list? Nope - camera to Elstree, engineer look at it and then quote.

Have you ever heard anything so absurd?
I hope Canon are watching this forum - cos it was the first Canon of several we were going to buy, it's now the first and last.

I have written to the service Director - but if the first response is anything to go by, I don't expect much back - I'd probably have to be in front of him before he could quote....
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Old December 11th, 2007, 04:23 AM   #13
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If you're shooting in a PAL country for broadcast/distribution in a PAL region you don't need 60i, since you will only be shooting at 25F/50i. The only reason to have the 30F/60i is if you're making a programme purely for a NTSC market.

Canon might think you've got a grey import, so they might be less than helpful for this reason.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 08:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Gosley View Post
He told me "can be done but we need the camera here in front of a techy before we can quote you how much for doing it at £60 per hour - plus the parts". ...camera to Elstree, engineer look at it and then quote. Have you ever heard anything so absurd?
What he told you was standard procedure. Yes they need the camera there in order to perform the upgrade, yes there is an established rate for the upgrade but that doesn't count for any other work the camera may need, so they must evaluate it first in order to give you a quote. It doesn't matter how new it is or what shape you think it's in. That they need to see it first is perfectly acceptable -- or let's put it this way, it may not be acceptable to you, but it's definitely what I would call a reasonable expectation. As we've reported before on this forum, the upgrade costs about $500 or $600 in U.S. dollars or whatever its equivalent is these days in Europe and / or the U.K.

I'm not clear on why you need the 60i upgrade though unless you're shooting for North American clients. If it's for 24F, remember you don't need it because you already have 25F (the same thing).
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Old December 12th, 2007, 03:03 AM   #15
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Why I need it...

Hi Chris,
Ok, the highest proportion of what I do is for the internet or internet use.
For this we use Sorenson Squeeze - and they informed me that squeeze is not brilliant on panned shots. I also found on this forum that the XL-H1 is not brilliant on panned shots - so the combined result is my .swf video'sare excessivley jerky on panned shots which I need to resolve.

I was then informed (in this thread) that to help get rid of stutter in panned shots I should consider the 60i mode for the camera.

I am hoping that if I have the 60i mode adapted it will help reduce the amount of stutter. Little of what we do will ever be for TV and if that ever happens we'll switch out of 60i mode.

Sorenson are working on one of our video avi's with the stutter in it to see if they can produce a more reasonable result even without the 60i adaptation.

Canon would know that if my camera had 60i mode on it without having been in for upgrade - then it would be a grey import. It is a standard PAL/UK model.
While you find it acceptable to enter kit for a quote I find it annoying as the camera has to go from Spain to england just for that exercise and when all is said and done it's a brand new camera - they should know what the cost and time to do it is, but I respect your opinion and value yourcomments.
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