1080 and 24 f Footage side by side at DVinfo.net

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Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XL H1S (with SDI), Canon XL H1A (without SDI). Also XL H1.


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Old June 16th, 2007, 07:16 PM   #1
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1080 and 24 f Footage side by side

Hi everyone...
I've posted a QT movie (84 meg) that shows a bunch of footage I've shot with the H1. Some in 60i mode...some in 24f. Some scenes are in BOTH modes...for viewing differences.

Stats:

All footage was shot with 20x lens. No setup changes except Coring was at 2.
ND filter was used for outside shooting...INCLUDING the ND filter on the camera.

ALL footage was recorded on HDV....

Paste this into your browser:

ftp://68.83.117.113
user: canondemo
password: xlh1

Drag the movie to your desktop...

ENJOY !
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Old June 28th, 2007, 05:28 PM   #2
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hello just watched your sample, its a little difficult to see the difference at that size. Can i ask your work flow and settings. I shoot n 25f but when i finally get to watch it on a dvd player, it looks like video instead of film again.

Can you share your workflow settings mate?

also what shutter were you shooting at with 24f for the out door watershow and the fit as fuuuuk pirates? :p

cheers

A.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 10:22 PM   #3
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Andy...

We shoot 24f....then use the Convergent Design box to get it into our Avid Adrenaline. The box takes the firewire out of the H1....and puts the audio(4 channels) and video on a HD-SDI output. It also converts the firewire control signal to a RS422 for the AVID to understand.

In Avid...we use a 1080i (59.94) sequence. Avid doesn't support 24 frame sequences.

The pulldown looks great...and the film look is absolutely perfect.

For the 24f settings...I use the 1/48 shutter.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 07:31 PM   #4
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Thanks Kevin.

Can I also ask you how you judge exposure correctly when outside at night?

Do you still shoot in 1080i 24f?

Again what setting are you using? i seem to struggle in the same situation. Thanks for the response.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 11:42 PM   #5
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Andy,

I've been shooting video for over 25 years. You learn to use the zebra settings.

Everyone has their own personal way of doing it. Here's mine:

The H1 can set the zebra in 5 IRE segments. It is commonly known that white skin runs around 70 ire. There are guys who use this method. They set zebra at 70ire. When doing interviews....if the person's face has zebra on it...they know the exposure is correct. I personally don't like that...I like to be able to see the face, plus...if you're not shooting faces...your scene could be covered with zebra.

I normally set a camera with a zebra setting to 98%. I can then tell what my whites are...while still being UNDEREXPOSED.

Say you're shooting a street with the sun out. 1/2 of the WHITE sidewalk has sun..the other doesn't. I would expose with zebra showing on the SUN side of the sidewalk. It's telling you that this portion of the scene is almost close to 100% video.

Same applies for nite...anything hot like lights, or even water that's lit...you want to see zebra on it. You learn when to "push" exposure and when to "under expose" your shots. More advanced cameras have 2 zebra settings...so you can see your first setting....then a second setting. (say you set at 95%....then 100%) The second zebra (which looks different from the first...let's you know you've reached THAT exposure)

With today's color LCD's...people forget about using zebras. I almost always us BW viewfinders. I'll use the color on the H1 (if I don't have a monitor with me)...just to check color balance...then go back to BW.

Again...this is all personal preferences. BW viewfinders give you much better contrast than color.

There is no question that this takes some time and practice.
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 03:29 AM   #6
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Kevin, so with the XL-H1 you shoot with 95% IRE Zebra? And when you expose, you will change exposure till you see Zebras appear on the brightest elements in the scene? I would like to learn this.

I would also like to see your footage but it appears the username and password do not work anymore. It is it possible to reupload?
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Old November 23rd, 2007, 05:45 AM   #7
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Ooh want to know mnore...

Hi kevin
I too am keen to learn what you are discussing, but I too can not get in to watch the demo.
Please consider loading up again,
Thanks
Dave
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Old November 24th, 2007, 08:22 AM   #8
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I'm sorry Dave...I took the quicktime down off the site. It was up for 6 months.

I had compressed it to a 80 meg file...but some said it was too small for them to see the differences....

When I get some time...I'll try reposting it in a larger size so the 24f is more noticable from the 60i footage.

Thanks....
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Old December 29th, 2007, 11:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floris van Eck View Post
Kevin, so with the XL-H1 you shoot with 95% IRE Zebra? And when you expose, you will change exposure till you see Zebras appear on the brightest elements in the scene? I would like to learn this.
That won't always work. If you are filming a flat scene with low contrast, exposing a middle tone to the intensity of a 95% zebra will cause the entire scene to be overexposed.

What we settle on as a technique becomes our signature. I expose for middle tones of a scene. If a scene is flat or low contrast, the highlights may never go over 65% and the shadows may not go under 45%.

My outdoor process is this:

1.) Shoot manual, try to shoot as close to 60 fps (for 60i) as possible, or a multiple, i.e. 120, 180, 240 etc., and use the neutral density filter to get the number to the lowest multiple as possible, or 60 itself. That results in optimum motion handling.

2.) Use the aperture ring, work between f1.6 and no more than f4.4, moving it back and forth, using a monitor, the LCD or even the viewfinder to hit the target overall scene density. If you practice this, you can use even the viewfinder as a tool for judging exposure. Back and forth with the aperture ring. If the scene starts to get underexposed, the mid tones takes on a cloudy grey undersaturated look. Overexposed and they become vibrant out of proportion. I set the zebra level to 100%.

That's just me. Good luck with finding your signature technique.

Yikes, this topic was old...
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Old December 31st, 2007, 10:18 AM   #10
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Tom, why not go over f/4.4?

And I am going to experiment with my Sekonic lightmeter and a test environment to get a better feeling for exposing a scene with the Canon XL-H1. When you say you expose for the midtones, you could also work with a 20% gray card to expose a scene or will that give a different result?
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Old December 31st, 2007, 08:50 PM   #11
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This is usually a pretty touchy subject.

Properly exposing a scene...using a b/w viewfinder or color viewfinder...is something that I believe is a personal preference...and you get your own ways of doing it properly.

I've been shooting professional video since 1979...and I just KNOW when it's exposed properly. I know how much I can push exposure using my zebra setting (especially if I know the camera well) .

Also...sometimes a "by the book or by the scope" exposure is not always the correct one...depending on the scene or look you're trying to achieve.

But you need to know your camera...how it reacts when you under and over expose an image...and then...relate to that on a minute by minute basis when shooting.
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Old January 1st, 2008, 03:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Floris van Eck View Post
Tom, why not go over f/4.4?
From my testing on resolution charts and the Imatest MTF50 software, diffraction artifacts start to creep in. But it's not like the image goes to pieces. It's more of an informed decision for me, to stay within the sharpness sweet spot if possible, f3.4-f4.0. You may have good reasons not to.
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Old January 1st, 2008, 03:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Martorana View Post
This is usually a pretty touchy subject.

Properly exposing a scene...using a b/w viewfinder or color viewfinder...is something that I believe is a personal preference...and you get your own ways of doing it properly.

I've been shooting professional video since 1979...and I just KNOW when it's exposed properly. I know how much I can push exposure using my zebra setting (especially if I know the camera well) .

Also...sometimes a "by the book or by the scope" exposure is not always the correct one...depending on the scene or look you're trying to achieve.

But you need to know your camera...how it reacts when you under and over expose an image...and then...relate to that on a minute by minute basis when shooting.
That is how I feel as well. Totally agree 100%. My point to the other poster was that he can't simply use zebras to expose for the highlights alone.
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Old January 1st, 2008, 02:17 PM   #14
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Since it seems this topic got "opened" again...

I wanted to do what I had promised....

I've re-compressed the footage and posted it as a WMV HD file...

The link that started this topic is the same....

Paste this into your browser:

ftp://68.83.117.113
user: canondemo
password: xlh1

Drag the movie to your desktop...

I've attached some jpgs so you can see what some of the images are.

ENJOY !
Attached Thumbnails
1080 and 24 f Footage side by side-1.jpg   1080 and 24 f Footage side by side-2.jpg  

1080 and 24 f Footage side by side-3.jpg   1080 and 24 f Footage side by side-4.jpg  

1080 and 24 f Footage side by side-5.jpg   1080 and 24 f Footage side by side-6.jpg  

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Old April 26th, 2008, 04:59 AM   #15
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Hi kevin
Do you have a web site where you can put this film on display for all the world to view? It need not be in its absolute full glory HD, but it would show the film, its composition, your camera and editing skills which newbies like me can learn from.
Thanks
Dave
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