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Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog
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Old September 28th, 2003, 09:21 PM   #31
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I'm curious as to why canon has 'held back' as far as video quality goes on the XL1 series. They seem to have plenty of resources and experience, and they don't have a professional line to maintain, so they could go all out on their next XL upgrade, adding features that until now Sony/Panasonic/JVC wouldn't include in order to not overlap with their pro line.
Canon has a lot to lose. Canon and Fuji are the only manufactures of high end broadcast lenses. Fuji does not have a video camera presence. If Canon were to give away high end features in low end consumer market cameras, it probably would impact their much greater profit BQ lenses.
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Old September 28th, 2003, 10:14 PM   #32
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Ah I see. So the high end broadcast lenses work on the XL1?But If not why would it impinge on their broadcast lens market? I mean after all, even if they make an XL2 that can output uncompressed HD video, the factory lenses will be nowhere near their broadcast quality lenses....or do they make broadcast cameras as well? How does the DV camera capabilities interefere with their lens market? You'd still have to buy their high end lenses to get good glass....

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Old September 28th, 2003, 11:58 PM   #33
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Juan,

<< So the high end broadcast lenses work on the XL1? >>

No, they do not.

<< But If not why would it impinge on their broadcast lens market? >>

If Canon were to give away high end features in lower end consumer market cameras such as the XL1, this would take sales away from professional Sony, Panasonic and JVC cameras, which all use Canon broadcast lenses. That's how it would hurt Canon's broadcast lens market.

<< I mean after all, even if they make an XL2 that can output uncompressed HD video, >>

The forthcoming HDV format which undoubtedly will include the XL2 will *not* be uncompressed. It most definitely will be compressed.

<< or do they make broadcast cameras as well? >>

No, they do not.

<< How does the DV camera capabilities interefere with their lens market? >>

Explained in first part of my response, just above. Hope this helps,
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Old September 29th, 2003, 12:51 AM   #34
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What about CCD's

> Canon has a lot to lose. Canon and Fuji are the only manufactures of
> high end broadcast lenses. Fuji does not have a video camera
> presence. If Canon were to give away high end features in low
> end consumer market cameras, it probably would impact their
> much greater profit BQ lenses.

Even more to lose: imagine what would happen if that other manufacterer were to stop selling CCD chips to Canon.
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Old October 1st, 2003, 01:47 AM   #35
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Chris,

When i said uncompressed I meant an option to output uncompressed 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 via firewire, even if the on-board format is less than this.

I'm in the process of doing an experiment with a TRV900, and all the data remains 4:4:4 way until it is DV encoded for tape and firewire output. I have all schematics for this camera, and I don't know for sure, but I would bet that the XL1 and just about every other camcorder works at full quality all the way until compression/decimation.

I am planning to do some data capture tests by serializing Y/C 4:4:4 uncompressed data after it is adjusted(but before it is decimated/compressed of course).

Right now i'm working on the circuitry for recording the data, i'm using 2 IEEE 1394 interfaces and high-speed shift registers to serialize the data to hard disks.

Anyway, my point is, the data is there, despite what limited tape format the camera uses. If they include a feature to somehow access the uncompressed/undecimated video, it will be an incredible feature. After all, in this age of computers why should we be limited to the tape format's capabilites.

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Old October 1st, 2003, 08:25 AM   #36
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After all, in this age of computers why should we be limited to the tape format's capabilites.
The manufactures don't want to give away the high end features and corresponding benefits. The companies have an obligation to their stockholders to produce a profit. Profits will diminish if pro features are incorporated (or enabled) on entry level products. It may seem unjust or unfair, but basically it's all about features, benefits and making a profit. After all, if there is no profit, there's no R & D to develop and refine technological advances.
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Old October 1st, 2003, 08:40 AM   #37
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"Dumbing down" the features on the upscale software is standard practice in NLE's. Avid and Cinewave give you "Upgrades" by unlocking the software potentials you already own.

Yup, it's about profits, and marketing. That's the biz
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Old October 1st, 2003, 08:58 AM   #38
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That is all true. But the only camera i have seen this feature on is the Thomson Viper. If it is a matter of outstaging professional products, why don't they include this feature in the Panasonic SDX900 for instance.

I beleive that there are PLENTY of other features that you just do not buy when you purchase a cheaper camera like the DVX100...large, better CCD's, and the glass. This will never change. But I think that not allowing you to use the the capabilities that are ALREADY THERE, is just something that whenever one company does it, all of them will.

Think about it, even the XL1, or the DVX100 will not have the larger CCD's, low light performance, more lines of resolution and the great lens of higher end cameras, even if you could get 4:4:4 uncompressed output out of it. Not to mention the ability to record on professional casettes, etc. This feature will only work tied down to a laptop or even using an expensive additional harddrive. Actually, even though you may get 1/3 CCD's, as far as color resolution you are getting the color from a CCD 1/4 that size because of the quantizing. You bought the thing, why shouldn't you be able to get the output from it? If all camcorders had this feature, they'd still be in the same range. A DVX100 wouldn't be any more better than an SDX900, if they both have the 4:4:4 uncompressed feature.

Anyway this is just my opinion, you guys are probably right. I just think it's like giving you a ferrari for less money but limiting the engine output with a set screw. All you have to do is go in and turn it.

Juan
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Old October 2nd, 2003, 11:22 AM   #39
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btw. for XL2 they should make firewire 800mbps (100MB/second) instead of 400mbps (50MB/second). that'll take care o uncompressed real good =D.
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Old October 2nd, 2003, 11:43 AM   #40
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<<<-- Originally posted by Juan P. Pertierra :Think about it, even the XL1, or the DVX100 will not have the larger CCD's, low light performance, more lines of resolution and the great lens of higher end cameras, >>>

Well, possibly the last unique feature of the XL1 in the current market is that it is the only camera in its class that allows for interchanging lenses. With the proper adaptors, the best lenses in the world can be utilized.
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Old October 2nd, 2003, 01:37 PM   #41
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Good point! Just because you can change lenses on the XL1 just like the pro units, that doesn't mean everyone is going to buy the XL1 and not the pro ones.

There will always be features that cost money, and there is no way around them but to buy a more expensive model, that costs more to build. Piping 4:4:4 video out doens't cost them any more other than a simple design change and maybe some simple software.
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Old October 6th, 2003, 11:03 AM   #42
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If you were to use an MJPEG codec or something with a datarate
between 10 - 20 MB/s that would be doable to store on current
harddisks and increase colorspace dramatically... Uncompressed
SD is only 30 MB/s.
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Old October 15th, 2003, 04:37 AM   #43
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New Canon XL1 series coming soon?

Canon, Sony & Sharp Corporation have just signed a standards agreement for domestic Hi Def. Anyone know anymore? Cheers from Oz, Pete Constable
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Old October 15th, 2003, 11:45 AM   #44
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Well, you've hit it right on the button--there's a possibility the XL2 will use the HDV standard--which would be unfortunate, because Canon could surely come up with a better format free from the constraints of the MiniDV carriage.
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Old October 15th, 2003, 12:07 PM   #45
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Pete,

Where did you hear this? Was there a press release like when they agreed on the HDV def? Would love to see the link to this news...hopefully we are closer to the HDV world than we think!

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