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Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog
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Old May 17th, 2003, 08:17 AM   #181
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Bob, please let us all know how that works out for you. If you get some good still frames of those eagles, please send a few of them to me along with some stills of the camera and lens set-up, as I would love to add them to the Images Gallery on the XL1 Watchdog site. Thanks,
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Old May 17th, 2003, 09:32 AM   #182
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Should be good shots

Okay,

But but for now, just for kicks this is of a Coopers Hawk taken through a double glass super UV Window and the screen. Standard 16X IS on XL-1. Subject in tree was about 6 meters fr the lens.

http://robertdeming.mystarband.net/

Couldn't get a good focus due to the conditions. But I got close.

I can't remember if this was a still or shot in frame mode.

I forgot I had this site that starband provides.

I also have some shots of the eagles I'll lset you look at. They were shot though a Celestron F8 telescope. I made my own mount for the XL-1 to the Celestron mount. I'll take a shot of the mounting adapter.

Oh, ya. BH sent the wrong lens. They sent the "import" or "grey market" lens instead of the USA. So I will have the lens next week.

I will get some shots with the XL-1S with the 16XMS Lens and then do a few shots with the 350mm.
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Old May 18th, 2003, 04:57 PM   #183
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Shallow DOF with XL1, EF EOS Adapter and T/S lenses

I don't know how well this will work, but for those interested in shallow DOF, the following will be your best shot at achieving it.

I will first preface this by saying I have not attempted this. Three pieces of equipment are need, in addition to an XL1. For this experiment you'll need the Canon EF XL adapter to adapt Canon EOS EF lenses, Canon 24mmEOS T/S lens and a wide angle convertor.

A lens with Tilt allows the user to control DOF. Normally the tilt function is used to maximize the DOF in 35mm work. However, negative tilt could be used to achieve much shallower DOF than normally obtained with 1/3 inch video chips.

The EF XL adapter would allow the 24mm T/S lens to be attached to the XL1. A .6X wide angle adapter would make the effective focal length about 100mm (slight telephoto on 35mm). By my estimation, very shallow DOF would be able to be obtained with reasonable working distances from the subject.
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Old May 20th, 2003, 04:31 PM   #184
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Wouldn't you introduce distortions in the picture with all that
glass etc.?
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Old May 20th, 2003, 05:38 PM   #185
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I would say it's possible Rob. However, the EF 24mmT/S is an "L" series lens. I rented the lens when I lived in Cincinnati and for 35mm film was very sharp. So, the question is would the Century WA adapter introduce excessive aberrations or vignetting into the optical system. If the WA adapter can't be used, the lens would end up around 170mm. A little long but I've used longer lenses for portraits. However, I don't have the 24 T/S to test and there are none for rent in Tampa/St. Pete.
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Old May 21st, 2003, 12:14 AM   #186
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If you have a 50 mm, T2 (close to F2) lens that you're using with 1/3" chip, it does not matter if it is a lens made for that format, or for 35 mm still format, the DOF will be identical, as seen by the chip. So on the Canon camcorder this 50 mm lens will be extreme telephoto and will have the same DOF as a normal focal length on 35 mm still camera. There is no way around it.

Use 21 mm lens on a 35 mm camera -- it is extreme wide angle on that format -- and everything will be pretty much in focus. Set your Canon lens to 21 mm, which will be telephoto, and you'll get the same DOF -- practically everything will be in focus.

The Mini 35 adaptor changes the target size and therefore you need a lot longer lens for the same angle of view as with the small CCD size. That's how they achieve shallow DOF.

The Canon shift lens changes it's focal length for different areas of the picture. If you shoot building from the ground, the focal length (and magnification) will be higher at the top of the picture, which will change the perspective.
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Old May 21st, 2003, 06:53 AM   #187
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Joseph, without getting into a discussion of DOF, you don't understand how tilt or shift works. Tilt changes the areas of the picture that will be included in the DOF. Your assumptions on DOF are only partially correct. If you have additional thoughts or comments on DOF, please post them in this thread after taking the time to read it.

The focal length of a shift lens does not change, nor does the perspective change. A shift lens has a greater angle of view than a non shift lens. This greater coverage allows the photographer to control the perspective, but it does not change. Perspective changes when the camera (film or chip) is moved, not the lens.
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Old May 21st, 2003, 02:25 PM   #188
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Jeff, I agree with you. I just want to say that there are 3 facors that affect DOF:

frame size (film, CCD)

angle of view

lens F-stop.

If you have the same angle of view and lens F-stop, then changing the target area is the only solution. Here comes the mini 35 with an ingeneous solution.
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Old May 21st, 2003, 03:20 PM   #189
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Yes, the mini 35 is a great way to get DOF similar to 35mm film. However, it costs upwards of $8,000 and no lenses. The point of this thread was a more economical way to achieve a similar effect (shallower DOF). The 24mm T/S lens, new, is around $1,100, the EF XL adapter, is around $450, and the Century WA adapter is around $600. Total investment is less than a quarter of a mini 35 with lenses.

The 24mm is limiting, but for some XL1 users, it may be worth the experiment. I already have the EF XL adapter and Century WA adapter. In larger, metropolitan areas the lens rents fairly inexpensively (I rented it for $20 a day). The mini 35 rents for hundreds a day and no lenses. If a project required just a few shots with shallower DOF, this might be a viable alternative for some XL1 shooters.
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Old May 21st, 2003, 05:40 PM   #190
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Please let us know, Jeff, if you ever manage to test this thing
out!
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 09:17 AM   #191
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I'm just really interested to know what picture quality improvements can be made using an EOS lens, instead of a made-for-XL1 lens (16x, 3x, etc).

Can anyone direct me to some footage captured using such a hookup?

I noticed Bob Denning's post in a nother thread, and he pointed to the PappasSystem article: http://www.dvinfo.net/canon/articles/article21.htm

This is what you're attempting to do, yes?
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 04:26 PM   #192
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Hi Andrew,

The Pappas System goes about putting EOS lenses on an XL1 series camera for some of the same reasons. But the effects would be accomplished differently.

One of the reasons to use Canon EOS EF lenses is they are sharper (resolve more paired lines) than the standard XL lenses. They only use the center portion of the lens and the center offers the most optical correction for aberrations. The center is also the sharpest part of the lens.

However, beyond sharpness and optical correction, the Tilt/Shift (T/S) lenses offer the ability to control DOF through the tilt mechanism. Large format view cameras have the ability to tilt, swing, shift etc. Canon's lenses don't offer all the controls or as great a degree of movement as view cameras. But to control DOF, only tilt (swing) would be required.

The basics of how Tilt works is out lined in the Scheimpflug Principal. You can read about it and see examples on the Zork site. The page details how to use the Scheimpflug Principal to increase DOF (something desirable in large format photography). However, if you go against the principal, you can make DOF decrease dramatically. Of course it's the dramatic reduction that would be of interest to video users.
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 04:53 PM   #193
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Jeff:

I used swing and shift lens setups when they were in vogue for commercials and music videos a few years back. I'm sure you are familiar with the image characteristics but I find the images on the Zork site a bit misleading for those who haven't used the technology before--they seem to present the notion that you can decrease the overall depth of field of the image as opposed to creating selective focus. The example with the teeth could easily get folks excited but one should be aware that with this image, the effect being shown would look similar if it was shot with shallow focus OR a swing/shift effect. Other situations would net different results.

For example--if you had a subject in the middle of the frame, one could, with a swing/shift setup, soften the background to one side of the subject, but not both. In fact, if there was a foreground element on the other side, it would come into focus along with the subject! This is not the same, of course, as being able to throw the entire background out of focus.

It would be a fun setup to play around with (myself, I'd be perfectly happy not to dick around with swing/shift ever again, I found it fiddly!) but I think if someone thought they would be able to achieve classic shallow depth of field with this, they'd probably be disappointed.
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 05:22 PM   #194
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Agreed, the tooth images weren't what I was referring to. I should have been more specific in my post, thanks for the correction. I was referring to the images of the tiles at the bottom of the page (below the teeth). The DOF would swing and you would have to be careful about blocking your scenes etc., as you point out. But on a small chip camera the degree of tilt and shift would be much greater than 35mm, because of the smaller target.

I think, short of a mini 35, this would present the only way to really control DOF with the camera. It certainly isn't ideal by any stretch of imagination, though.
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 09:23 PM   #195
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Jeff, Of course the EOS lens resolution is a lot higher, but the frame size is about 6x less on the camcorder, if I'm correct. So unless the EOS lenses can resolve more than 6x more lines in the center, you may not actually see any sharpness improvement. Plus the XL1 lenses may have higher resolution that the format requires. I think the horizontal on the chip is only about 6 mm and the format has 530 line resolution. Let's say that the XL1 lenses resolve at least 100 lines per mimeter. IMHO the EOS lenses would have problem resolving this much, unless I'm missing something, like use of .5 extender between the lens and the camera or something.
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