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Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog
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Old June 19th, 2002, 05:23 AM   #16
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How about PAL? If I remember correctly PAL is 0 IRE. That is
16,16,16 or 0,0,0? It is a real bummer that everything is so
geared towards NTSC (not pointing fingers at anyone here).
Try to find a guide about how to calibrate a PAL monitor. There
are plenty for NTSC ones.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 06:22 AM   #17
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Az,
You are saying, to shoot at 0 ire and then correct in post? And as far as graphics, how do you know when you are creating broadcast safe? Alot of what I do will never be broadcast, but at the same time, I use alot of graphics in all of my projects. Is there a color safe chart somewhere, or perhaps an NLE feature?
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Old June 19th, 2002, 09:35 AM   #18
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Rob,

Yeah, PAL is a different animal. Most the information I liked to read about was at the Tektronics (http://www.tektronics.com). They have been the only WF/VS I have used. Thye have information for PAL and NTSC

Check out:
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/App_Notes/indexes/video_audio.html&FrameSet=television

Capt,

For DV and editing I just stick with 0 IRE. It is what the camera and digital edit systems work in. I also found the XL-1S likes to have that whole range (0-115) to make video. I have tried kicking up blacks and clamping down whites to be 7.5-100 and it looses the color saturation and doesn't seem to "pop" out the images. Just seem light and flat. Now all that might be different if you have correct lighting, but I do mostly run and gun.

Anyway, so correcting in post is an option, but I would think the best bet is to use a proc amp when you make copies. Shoot in 0, edit in 0, master back in 0. Then, if you go analog use a legalizer or procamp to correct.

As for making safe color, that is where the RGB values come in.

0 IRE is RGB 16, 16, 16. That is black. When you create grapihcs none of the RGB numbers should go below that. If you created a graphic in Photoshop with black letters and you just click the black in the color pallete you would be using illegal colors. That black is 0, 0, 0. Or say you wanted yellow and you go to the swatches and pick the second color of the first line. If you check the RGB values you will see they are 255, 255, 0. Again, an illegal color. Just remember 16 to 235

Also, when you use grapihcs or pictures from other sources or that you scan in you have to bring them into spec. Open the item in Photoshop. Choose levels under the Image menu. Look at the histogram and see if it is too black or too white. If it need correcting then in the output levels type in 16 for the low and 235 for the high. That corrects each of the RGB at one time. Might look washed on a computer screen, but is fine for TV.

I had examples on my website, but I have to organize them better. I have a few hours before the next production is scheduled so maybe I'll work on that really quick and post it.

AS for a color safe chart, I know I saw one at a station I used to visit, but haven't looked for one since.

I have to laugh. Everytime I meet a broadcast engineer the first thing out of my mouth is, "Hi, Michael Rosenberger. What RGB values do you use for an NTSC safe red?" :)
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Old June 19th, 2002, 09:45 AM   #19
 
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For those of you interested in producing broadcast legal video, Vegas Video 3 has a number of filters to perform this function. One manual way is to play the video and watch the histogram. The histogram will tell you if you ever exceed 0-100 IRE. VV3 also has an internal filter called "broadcast color". This filter will remap the video signal to ensure that all values in the recorded clip stay within the NTSC reqmts. This is really the easiest way. Simply clamping the limits will NOT work, because it will blow out the highlights and crush the shadows. The right approach is to REMAP the entire luma to fit in 16-235 RGB as Azsportsman says. All DV cameras record 0 IRE by specification(default). In order to go legal, YA GOTTA fix this in post. There is NO OTHER WAY....unless you have a proc amp and vector scope/waveform analyzer.

An analogy can be made to audio recording. In digital audio recording, sound levels typically run -24 to 0 dB. Broadcast stations wil NOT broadcast any video in which the audio exceeds 0 dB, because anything over 0 dB will be clipped, resulting in distortion. Any audio signal below -25 dB gets lost in the threshhold noise. Gets complicated doesn't it...hehehehe.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 10:47 AM   #20
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> VV3 also has an internal filter called "broadcast color".
> This filter will remap the video signal to ensure that all
> values in the recorded clip stay within the NTSC reqmts.
> This is really the easiest way.

NICE! Haven't played with VV3 enough. To do the same thing, the external video legalizer we used (SDI) was over $1000 itself. And VV3 is what, $600?

Working on examples for RGB to IRE values using WF and VS and should have a page up in an hour. Also throwing in a quick example of checking and correcting histograms for scans and grapihcs in Photoshop.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 11:30 AM   #21
 
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I know I sound like a salesman, michael, but I can't say enough good things about Vegas Video. There's as much to getting the audio tweaked, trimmed and legal as there is to the video. VV3 has a really nice set of audio compressors, expanders, and noise filtes to help out.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 12:09 PM   #22
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Here is the link for RGB and IRE tests. PLEASE let me know if you would like to add to it, or think of better wording and examples. Thanks

http://www.azuho.com/waveform/ire.html

Bill,
As for VV3...I am a die hard Canopus user. Not that I enjoy editing in Premiere or StormEdit, just the functionallity of the Canopus hardware, realtime capabilities and the quality of the images. My preferd interface has been FCP since its inception

PS - The page has graphics so it may load slow.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 12:24 PM   #23
 
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checked your webpage.....good someone has that info up and available. That agrees perfectly with my own procedure except that I'm using a software vectorscope/waveform analyser.....synthetic aperture's Video Finesse. The VF software will do in the video stream what you're doing in Photoshop with the histogram. The problem with doing a single image frame is you never know what frame in the stream has been missed.

A few more notes: I set my zebra to 90% and stay religious about eliminating zebra during my image capturing. This keeps me pretty assured I don't exceed IRE100. The pedestal can be reset with Video Finesse in such a way that the sharp corner of the knee can be rolled off. Gives a much more natural look to the shadows without crushing them. Unfortunately, Video Finesse only works on premier.....not on vv3...yet.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 12:44 PM   #24
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That is just the sum of all the questions I have had to ask over the years and reading forums and articles. Still don't completely understand the ENG side of video (SC, Burst, yadda, yadda, yadda), but I use those basics to make sure I am on the "level"...pardon the pun. Trust me, in my earlier years I had enough tape to stretch from my house to your house returned to me for having something wrong.

Hell, I still find myself making mistakes. The good part is I know they are mistakes and I know how and why to correct them.

Need to get back out to NM. Been craving red chili beef or pork. The stuff I had in Farmington just didn't cut it. You know a spot? How's Red River? :)
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Old June 19th, 2002, 01:00 PM   #25
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I usually set zebra to 100 anymore and look for VERY slight crawl in the hot spots. Like I said, everytime I cut down the high's it seems the XL-1S looses it color saturation. So keeping it on the hairy edge of 100 keeps the color I like and is easy to correct, or just clamp if it is just dribbled peaks.

Canopus used curves, allowing to bring up pedestal and lower whites. It also gives a knee adjustment to shift highlights or shadows. I admit, I need to play with it more to really understand how the adjustment effect picture quality. Sometimes I just put it to spec and I end up with clips that are good, but could be better with specific tweaks.

I tried the Finesse and one other, but I have to render the output. With doing a show every two weeks I just don't have that kind of time, and Canopus allows me good control in realtime.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 01:48 PM   #26
 
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Michael...

Understand what you're saying. I vascillate between 90 and 100 on the zebra. Some people set it to 70%, which I think is way overkill. I guess they expose for skin tones and not hi-lites.
Anyway, OT.....ummm, Red River is considered the "Texas of New Mexico" because there's so many Texans there. Mex food is pretty watered down. For my money, any little hole in the wall place in Santa Fe, Taos....if you want awesome scenery and out of the way...try Chama or Cimarron.
BTW, you've got your own extraordinary cuisine at the TeePee on Indian Scool Rd. I lived in Tempe for 12 years and know Phoenix well. If you want good adovada(red chile pork) try Rancho de Chimayo just north of SF, or (editted) Blue Corn Cafe in Abq or SF. Also a drive-up place in ABQ called Stuffy's has dyn-o-mite adovada in a sopapilla.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 03:58 PM   #27
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the 70% on zebra is great under studio settings, but I can't see through all the zebra crawl when shooting in super sunny Arizona.

I used to have a girl that worked for me that made carne adovada. I used to say "make me that 'car in nevada' stuff." It was real nice and spicey like too. She was from NM, Sante Fe area. That's why I asked. Heard of Red River from someone else.

I lived at the apartments across from the Tee Pee for over a year. Did get my fill of food.

They started that Hatch Valley company, but I was never too impressed. There is a place called La Pinata on Thomas and I-17 that is a good bet too.

I used to get down Hermosillo, Mex. on shoots often, so I am spoiled. Some of these Americanized Mexican food places just don't cut it.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up on the eats. I end up in NM every few months and hopefully will get to try it. That adovada in a sopapilla sounds FABULOUS!
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Old June 19th, 2002, 04:08 PM   #28
 
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If you, or anyone else for that matter, gets out my way, be sure to let me know. It would be great to meet some of you guys, and test some of NM's finest. Hot and wet....a great combination.
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Old June 19th, 2002, 04:23 PM   #29
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I'm drooling!

Same here, always ready for ________ and a beer. (Fill in blank with your favorite food. I'm not picky...'cept about making sure there is a beer part.)
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Old August 8th, 2002, 05:32 AM   #30
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Thanks

Hello,

As a newcomer to digital filming (my camera doesn't even arrive until next week) I wanted to say thanks for all the explanations you fellas have shared here. Special thanks to Azsportsman for the website tutorial. Idiot newcomers like myself need all the help we can get and the pictures help.

I certainly knew there would be a lot of obscure stuff to have to learn about, but some of the technical aspects just make my head hurt. It's good to know that there are people out there willing to share their experience.

Obviously I'm trying to get on your good side because once I start filming I will have a lot of stupid questions to ask you all. I apologise in advance :)

Adrian
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