Xl1 and Premiere: Recording at 29.95

Alexander Ibrahim · November 1st, 2001, 11:15 PM

In regards to Jack Mitchell's post:

I have never seen or used an XL-1 that exhibits this problem with any capture software or hardware except Premiere 6 on generic IEEE devices, like OHCI cards on the PC or the built in Firewire on Macs. On the same hardware where I experienced this problem with Premiere 6, I got solid captures using StudioDV, MainConcept MainActor and Ulead MediaStudio Pro. On this hardware the only cameras I could get to work properly with Premiere 6 were Sony VX1000 and VX2000 units. I also tried JVC DV500, Canon GL-1, DSR-300, and a JVC SR-VS10U deck.

It is possible that there is more than one cause that gives this symptomology. The one I experienced is a software issue with Premiere 6. Your problem description may in fact be accurate, but it would have to be an additional issue from what I am discussing.

If what you describe is only exhibited on a small number of XL-1's for a short manufactured period, then I would recommend any owner of such an XL-1 have it serviced. This would have to be a Camera software issue and Canon will update the software during service.

No software should be trusted to synch audio and video which may not be recorded at identical frame rates, nor should it be trusted to automatically retime any input source.

Finally, having been in tech support I do know they can be right, because I made it a point to always be right. I also know how often my co-workers were dead wrong and how often they would flat out lie. ( I would call it an industry epidemic, and one of the reasons I am out of the computer racket.) In any case I never said anything about the people at tech support anywhere...only that I felt it was a software issue in Premiere 6 based on my empirical observations and tests.

Brad_DeWees · November 2nd, 2001, 07:09 AM

I posted earlier that I'd check my frame rate and it's right on the money... 29.97 using an ADS Pyro firewire card (the cheapest I could find), Premiere 6.0, and an XL-1...

Robin Greenidge · November 2nd, 2001, 08:04 AM

Here is some feedback I received from one of the high level Techs at Premiere concerning this issue:

"Robin,

Nice bit of homework. However, don't believe everything you read on those postings. In response to your question, yes that's mostly true. There is only one exception that I'm aware of and that's the Matrox Digisuite series. It too suffers from this issue. That's because that particular series of cards break the video signal into separate .avi and .wav files. Since there is a sampling rate problem, the .wav files get out of sync with the associated .avi files which are basing the frame rate on the sampling rate. Of all the other certified cards, there are no others that have reported this problem.

P.S. I'd have posted this myself on the net community forum but ran short of time. You might suggest this test (especially to "This is a *Premiere* problem) - Capture footage on the Canon XL-1 then put the tape into another DV device, e.g. A Sony or JVC camera or Deck. Now try capturing the video in Premiere through the 1394 card. What happens is this. The footage is captured at 29.9X fps. Now record some footage on the Sony or JVC camera or deck that you used to play back the Canon XL-1 footage. That footage recorded on the Sony or JVC captures at 29.97 fps and consequently plays in sync. What that proves is this: the problem is encoded on the tape. It has nothing to do with Premiere liking one camera over another. In fact, this doesn't happen with all XL-1's or GL-1's or Optura's or Elura's. It only happens on a few cameras, made within a specific time frame. Anyway, just my little rant. Maybe I'll go back later and post something myself."

I will try to contact someone at Canon for some answers. I will you all posted.

MusarInteractive · November 19th, 2001, 02:45 PM

Hi,

I've been watching this thread with interest since I use Premiere 6, have a Pyro Platinum card installed and intend on purchasing an XL1/XL1s sometime soon.

It's been more than two weeks and I wonder if there are any new developments regarding the 29.9x issue.

Tim

Robin Greenidge · November 20th, 2001, 09:00 AM

I spoke with Canon one last time to explain in more detail my problem and they have asked me to send the camera back because there is "something" that they would like to try. They would not explain what they wanted to do but they did re-assure me that it would not be anything that would harm the operation of the camera. I will lose a week of shooting with it so I am waiting for a break in my schedule to send it to them. I will let you know what happened after it is returned.
In the meantime I have obtained a DV500 card and will install this in my system and capture some of the footage I took with the Canon to see if the same 29.95fps problem occurs.(This will be done when I have a break in my editing schedule).
I will keep you "posted".

Brad_DeWees · November 28th, 2001, 12:28 PM

Well, i was incorrect when I earlier stated that my XL-1 was capturing at 29.97 into Premiere via a Pyro firewire card. I was looking in the wrong location and dumping tape that out of sync audio wouldn't be readily apparent. I have new footage and it is VERY obvious. I discovered that it is dumping at 29.96 FPS. This is isolated to the XL-1 though, both GL-1's are fine. Let us know what they come up with Robin...

MusarInteractive · December 16th, 2001, 11:41 AM

Hi,

I'm following up on this thread again to see if the frame rate question has been resolved yet. What's the latest?

Thank you.

Tim

Brad_DeWees · December 16th, 2001, 01:14 PM

Hopefully it's positive, mine went off to be serviced for the same thing.

Joe Redifer · December 16th, 2001, 06:27 PM

aibrahim:

I have captured clips up to 30 minutes in length on my Mac using OS9 with NO problems. Unless you get a really slow-ass Mac, then there is no need to worry about OS9 screwing up your work. And if you have a Mac, chances are that you will be using Final Cut Pro or at least iMovie (free). Why use Premiere if you don't have to?

Takeshi Fukushima · December 17th, 2001, 08:00 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Redifer : aibrahim:
Why use Premiere if you don't have to? -->>>
it blends in well with Aftereffects?
red

Chris Hurd · December 17th, 2001, 08:06 AM

Brad DeWees,

Please keep us advised on what happens with your camera... I'm most interested in what Canon does to it. Should come back with a slip of paper describing exactly what changes or mods were done. Thanks,

Brad_DeWees · December 17th, 2001, 08:15 AM

Will do.
-Brad

December 20th, 2001, 09:54 AM

I ran into the same trouble with my xl-1 and premiere.
I found out the problem to be using a plain old firewire port in premiere. When i capture using my dv500 everything is in sync at 29.97 but if i use premiere and my fire wire port in my audigy then i get 29.96.
CRAZY.

December 28th, 2001, 01:11 PM

I have been fighting the A/V sync issue in the XL-1 since June. I started with a Canopus DV Raptor capture card and now have a Pinnacle DV500+ installed. On both cards, long capture clips (event video) are substantially out of sync toward the end of the clip in Premiere 6.01. My research seems to indicate that the XL-1 samples audio at something like 48.006 and this causes the drift. Pinnacle claims to have solved the problem with their V3.0 software which is dowloadable from their site. Despite the claim, the problem still exists with the DV500.

I have captured a 40-minute clip shot in June from the XL-1 and from the Panasonic AG-DV1000. Out of sync on both. I striped a new cassette, shoved the XL-1 in front of the TV and recorded 40-minutes of talking heads. Captured it. Out of sync on both.

Then I found the solution! Go to www.scenalyzer.com and download the sclive demo. Besides being a slick clip capture program with many features, long XL-1 takes are in perfect sync right out to the end of the tape.

The demo is the actual program with logo windows that pop up randomly but you can try it and use all the features. The best part is, $33 gets you the download that clears the pop-ups and you're off and running immediatly! I'm still celebrating.

The program doesn't take up a lot of space and really does a lot which leads me to believe that this guy wrote some pretty tight and clean code.

Bill Ravens · December 28th, 2001, 05:21 PM

I will second the supportive opinion for SCLive. It will scrub thru captured files very easily and also snaps a still frame at the press of the F2 key. It's a VERY nice program, and will even capture files with an .scn clip file so I can import the result into Pinnacle Studio 7. I am now using this almost exclusively for my captures. One more nice feature is the ability to do time lapse capture.

OK, I'm stepping off my soapbox nw.

November 1st, 2001, 11:15 PM	#16
Alexander Ibrahim Major Player Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 384	Canon XL-1 synch issues In regards to Jack Mitchell's post: I have never seen or used an XL-1 that exhibits this problem with any capture software or hardware except Premiere 6 on generic IEEE devices, like OHCI cards on the PC or the built in Firewire on Macs. On the same hardware where I experienced this problem with Premiere 6, I got solid captures using StudioDV, MainConcept MainActor and Ulead MediaStudio Pro. On this hardware the only cameras I could get to work properly with Premiere 6 were Sony VX1000 and VX2000 units. I also tried JVC DV500, Canon GL-1, DSR-300, and a JVC SR-VS10U deck. It is possible that there is more than one cause that gives this symptomology. The one I experienced is a software issue with Premiere 6. Your problem description may in fact be accurate, but it would have to be an additional issue from what I am discussing. If what you describe is only exhibited on a small number of XL-1's for a short manufactured period, then I would recommend any owner of such an XL-1 have it serviced. This would have to be a Camera software issue and Canon will update the software during service. No software should be trusted to synch audio and video which may not be recorded at identical frame rates, nor should it be trusted to automatically retime any input source. Finally, having been in tech support I do know they can be right, because I made it a point to always be right. I also know how often my co-workers were dead wrong and how often they would flat out lie. ( I would call it an industry epidemic, and one of the reasons I am out of the computer racket.) In any case I never said anything about the people at tech support anywhere...only that I felt it was a software issue in Premiere 6 based on my empirical observations and tests. __________________ Alexander Ibrahim http://www.alexanderibrahim.net

November 2nd, 2001, 08:04 AM	#18
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Some comments from Premiere Tech Support Here is some feedback I received from one of the high level Techs at Premiere concerning this issue: "Robin, Nice bit of homework. However, don't believe everything you read on those postings. In response to your question, yes that's mostly true. There is only one exception that I'm aware of and that's the Matrox Digisuite series. It too suffers from this issue. That's because that particular series of cards break the video signal into separate .avi and .wav files. Since there is a sampling rate problem, the .wav files get out of sync with the associated .avi files which are basing the frame rate on the sampling rate. Of all the other certified cards, there are no others that have reported this problem. P.S. I'd have posted this myself on the net community forum but ran short of time. You might suggest this test (especially to "This is a Premiere problem) - Capture footage on the Canon XL-1 then put the tape into another DV device, e.g. A Sony or JVC camera or Deck. Now try capturing the video in Premiere through the 1394 card. What happens is this. The footage is captured at 29.9X fps. Now record some footage on the Sony or JVC camera or deck that you used to play back the Canon XL-1 footage. That footage recorded on the Sony or JVC captures at 29.97 fps and consequently plays in sync. What that proves is this: the problem is encoded on the tape. It has nothing to do with Premiere liking one camera over another. In fact, this doesn't happen with all XL-1's or GL-1's or Optura's or Elura's. It only happens on a few cameras, made within a specific time frame. Anyway, just my little rant. Maybe I'll go back later and post something myself." I will try to contact someone at Canon for some answers. I will you all posted.

November 19th, 2001, 02:45 PM	#19
MusarInteractive New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Franconia NH 03580 USA Posts: 19	Any Late Breaking News? Hi, I've been watching this thread with interest since I use Premiere 6, have a Pyro Platinum card installed and intend on purchasing an XL1/XL1s sometime soon. It's been more than two weeks and I wonder if there are any new developments regarding the 29.9x issue. Tim

November 20th, 2001, 09:00 AM	#20
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Re: Any late breaking news? I spoke with Canon one last time to explain in more detail my problem and they have asked me to send the camera back because there is "something" that they would like to try. They would not explain what they wanted to do but they did re-assure me that it would not be anything that would harm the operation of the camera. I will lose a week of shooting with it so I am waiting for a break in my schedule to send it to them. I will let you know what happened after it is returned. In the meantime I have obtained a DV500 card and will install this in my system and capture some of the footage I took with the Canon to see if the same 29.95fps problem occurs.(This will be done when I have a break in my editing schedule). I will keep you "posted".

December 16th, 2001, 11:41 AM	#22
MusarInteractive New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Franconia NH 03580 USA Posts: 19	Hi Robin, Got your camera back from Canon yet? Hi, I'm following up on this thread again to see if the frame rate question has been resolved yet. What's the latest? Thank you. Tim

November 2nd, 2001, 07:09 AM	#17
Brad_DeWees New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 17	I posted earlier that I'd check my frame rate and it's right on the money... 29.97 using an ADS Pyro firewire card (the cheapest I could find), Premiere 6.0, and an XL-1...

November 28th, 2001, 12:28 PM	#21
Brad_DeWees New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 17	Well, i was incorrect when I earlier stated that my XL-1 was capturing at 29.97 into Premiere via a Pyro firewire card. I was looking in the wrong location and dumping tape that out of sync audio wouldn't be readily apparent. I have new footage and it is VERY obvious. I discovered that it is dumping at 29.96 FPS. This is isolated to the XL-1 though, both GL-1's are fine. Let us know what they come up with Robin...

December 16th, 2001, 01:14 PM	#23
Brad_DeWees New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 17	Hopefully it's positive, mine went off to be serviced for the same thing.

December 16th, 2001, 06:27 PM	#24
Joe Redifer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 290	aibrahim: I have captured clips up to 30 minutes in length on my Mac using OS9 with NO problems. Unless you get a really slow-ass Mac, then there is no need to worry about OS9 screwing up your work. And if you have a Mac, chances are that you will be using Final Cut Pro or at least iMovie (free). Why use Premiere if you don't have to?

December 17th, 2001, 08:00 AM	#25
Takeshi Fukushima Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 86	<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Redifer : aibrahim: Why use Premiere if you don't have to? -->>> it blends in well with Aftereffects? red

December 17th, 2001, 08:06 AM	#26
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Brad DeWees, Please keep us advised on what happens with your camera... I'm most interested in what Canon does to it. Should come back with a slip of paper describing exactly what changes or mods were done. Thanks, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 17th, 2001, 08:15 AM	#27
Brad_DeWees New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 17	Will do. -Brad

December 20th, 2001, 09:54 AM	#28
kizersosay Posts: n/a	XL1 at 29.95 I ran into the same trouble with my xl-1 and premiere. I found out the problem to be using a plain old firewire port in premiere. When i capture using my dv500 everything is in sync at 29.97 but if i use premiere and my fire wire port in my audigy then i get 29.96. CRAZY.

December 28th, 2001, 01:11 PM	#29
Dave Wolfenden Posts: n/a	XL-1 A/V Sync in Premiere 6.01 I have been fighting the A/V sync issue in the XL-1 since June. I started with a Canopus DV Raptor capture card and now have a Pinnacle DV500+ installed. On both cards, long capture clips (event video) are substantially out of sync toward the end of the clip in Premiere 6.01. My research seems to indicate that the XL-1 samples audio at something like 48.006 and this causes the drift. Pinnacle claims to have solved the problem with their V3.0 software which is dowloadable from their site. Despite the claim, the problem still exists with the DV500. I have captured a 40-minute clip shot in June from the XL-1 and from the Panasonic AG-DV1000. Out of sync on both. I striped a new cassette, shoved the XL-1 in front of the TV and recorded 40-minutes of talking heads. Captured it. Out of sync on both. Then I found the solution! Go to www.scenalyzer.com and download the sclive demo. Besides being a slick clip capture program with many features, long XL-1 takes are in perfect sync right out to the end of the tape. The demo is the actual program with logo windows that pop up randomly but you can try it and use all the features. The best part is, $33 gets you the download that clears the pop-ups and you're off and running immediatly! I'm still celebrating. The program doesn't take up a lot of space and really does a lot which leads me to believe that this guy wrote some pretty tight and clean code.

December 28th, 2001, 05:21 PM	#30
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I will second the supportive opinion for SCLive. It will scrub thru captured files very easily and also snaps a still frame at the press of the F2 key. It's a VERY nice program, and will even capture files with an .scn clip file so I can import the result into Pinnacle Studio 7. I am now using this almost exclusively for my captures. One more nice feature is the ability to do time lapse capture. OK, I'm stepping off my soapbox nw.