Xl1 and Premiere: Recording at 29.95 - Page 3 at DVinfo.net

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Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog
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Old January 1st, 2002, 04:01 PM   #31
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Robin, et. al.

Unless I've misunderstood the problem or missed the answer here is mine: there's nothing wrong with an NTSC frame rate of 29.97. In the NTSC system there is actually no such thing as 30 fps - not since "compatible" color was developed for NTSC in the early 1950s.

Originally the 30fps was an ingenious way to maintain sync in a very "cheap" way between originating camera and home tv receiver since they both had one thing in common- 60 cycle AC (hence 60 fields). This worked perfectly as long as all we had was black and white television transmission and reception. But when color came in, "room" had to be made to accomodate the color information - that .03 of a second is where the color burst is contained. That's the way NTSC dealt with developing a system that could still work with b&w and color symultaneously.

PAL which is a much newer and, in many ways, better system doesn't "suffer"from this (PAL is also based on 25fps since European AC is 50cycles.) Most people just ignore the .03 difference and refer to the NTSC as 30fps since it doesn't make any difference what we call it and it's an easier number to remember. Premiere is actually giving you the actual frame rate. I'm surprised no one at Adobe was able to give you the simple answer. It makes me wonder how much they know about TV to begin with.

Bottom line - there's nothing wrong. The NTSC color system is really 29.97 fps. In today's digital world that tid bit of information seems a little anachronistic but it's the truth.
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Old January 2nd, 2002, 06:10 AM   #32
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I just got SCLIVE and I think that its a great program!
Has anybody figured out how to capture the audio2 channel?
I have an XL-1 and my source footage has audio on channel2 but i don't see any options on SClive to capture it.
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Old January 2nd, 2002, 09:09 AM   #33
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Ch2 audio on SCLive

<<<-- Originally posted by kizersosay : I just got SCLIVE and I think that its a great program!
Has anybody figured out how to capture the audio2 channel?
I have an XL-1 and my source footage has audio on channel2 but i don't see any options on SClive to capture it. -->>>

Havn't played with it enough yet but I'd go to the FAQ page at the Scenalyzer site and use the FEEDBACK button to get an answer. It's a well thought out program so I'm sure the capability is there.
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Old January 2nd, 2002, 10:41 AM   #34
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I asked the folks at Scenalyzer and they sent me a link to a new version of SClive that does support the second channel of audio when recording at 32khz.
I will try it out tonight.
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Old January 2nd, 2002, 12:11 PM   #35
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<<<-- Originally posted by kizersosay : I asked the folks at Scenalyzer and they sent me a link to a new version of SClive that does support the second channel of audio when recording at 32khz.
I will try it out tonight. -->>>


I'd be interested in the results and, if it works, the link. I often use the Audio 1 and Audio 2 inputs..usually Audio 1 with the on-camera mike for ambience and the Audio 2 (with the adapter) with a hand or wireless mike. Doing a shoot tonight where I will use a line feed from an in-house audio system into Audio 2.
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Old January 7th, 2002, 11:39 AM   #36
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The Results are in!

I borrowed a DV500 board from a friend and just completed the installation in my system after removing the "plain vanilla 1394" card(made by Belkin) I have been using for Premiere 6. The DV500 card captures the footage at 29.97 unlike the Belkin which seems to have been the cause of the problem(maybe?). The good news is that the problem follows the PC and not the camera. I am leaning towards Premiere as being the source of the problem since it is making a claim of being able to capture with just a firewire card. I will run a few other tests and keep you all abreast of the developments, if you are interested.
What a pain in the butt!
I have only captured a few seconds with the DV500 but I will start a 1hr capture and see what happens.
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Old January 9th, 2002, 09:24 AM   #37
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The final Verdict.

The 29.9x problem does lies with Premiere's difficulty to capture footage using a 1394 card. I tried a few different tests and the problem follows the premiere software. I downloaded the scenalyzer, captured a few clips, dropped them into Premiere and voila! 29.97!!. Premiere is aware of this problem since they are the ones that sent me to the scenalyer website. I am a bit unhappy about the way this whole scenario progressed. My camera has been to Canon 4 times because of this problem! The third time the camera came back not functioning properly.
The bottom line is that you very likely will have improper frame rates if you capture with a plai 'ol 1394 card. So either use a capture card(canopus, Matrox, etc...) or try this Scenalyer software.
Thanks to all of you for your input into this problem, it's great to have a place like this.
For those of you in Tech Support, be upfront with us, if there is a problem...say so! Time is money!
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Old January 9th, 2002, 10:33 AM   #38
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I guess my dissertation on 29.97 has not been read or no one agrees or I'm barking up the wrong tree?

The post appears earlier in this thread. The point is that 29.97fps IS the correct rate for NTSC color. It has been that way since 1952 (or was it 1948?) when NTSC agreed on a compatible color standard for its system. We work with Premiere quite a bit and have never been bothered by the 29.97 fps it gives you. Maybe Adobe should just make everyone feel happy and change the readout to 30fps.

Let me ask everyone this - has the 29.97fps in Premiere ever caused any real problems besides confusing everyone?
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Old January 9th, 2002, 10:40 AM   #39
 
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is the issue 29.97 vs. 30.00 or is it 29.95 vs. 29.97?
seems to me the problem is 29.95, which will result in audio sync probs. and non-compatibility with NTSC standard
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Old January 9th, 2002, 10:56 AM   #40
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Ozzie., While the information you gave us was very interesting, I don't think you read the entire thread because you missed some key points from earlier posts.

We know that Premiere is supposed to capture at 29.97. The problem is that it's not in all cases. Mine for example, was reporting a capture rate of 29.96. Other's were capturing at 29.95.

In cases where the capture rate was something other than 29.97, the audio gets out of sync. And THAT is the problem.
-Brad
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Old January 9th, 2002, 11:14 AM   #41
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<<<-- Originally posted by Brad_DeWees : ...I don't think you read the entire thread because you missed some key points from earlier posts.<<<

You are quite right. I stand corrected.

<<<--We know that Premiere is supposed to capture at 29.97. The problem is that it's not in all cases. Mine for example, was reporting a capture rate of 29.96. Other's were capturing at 29.95.

In cases where the capture rate was something other than 29.97, the audio gets out of sync. And THAT is the problem.
-Brad -->>>

If that's the case then I still feel it's a read out problem. If the sync is anything less than the correct one you'd be having more than just audio problems. A time base corrector can perform miracles but it corrects the entire signal. If the picture is not rolling over or being pulled to the side (all signs of sync problems) I would look elsewhere for the problem. There have been times, even with Avids, when we've had to slide the audio track a few frames (usually 4) to get the audio in sync. We've never been able to track the source of the problem (with Avid) since it has been more of a nuisance than a big problem.

Caveat emptor - I could be completely wrong since my basis for analyzing the problem is primarily in the analog world, not digital, which has progressed more rapidly than I can keep up with.
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Old January 9th, 2002, 12:03 PM   #42
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Robin,

You said that the last time your camera came back from Canon it was broken. The fact is the that when you bought your camera from Canon your camera was broken. Your camera is recording at an off sampling rate instead of a true 48000 kHz. You've proved that several times over with all of your testing. If you play back a tape that you've recorded in your XL-1 in any other camera or deck, it will capture at the 29.96. If you play a tape on your XL-1 that you've recorded in any other DV device, it will capture at 29.97. You're in serious denial. Premiere bases it's frame rate count on the sampling rate of the video clip. Granted, probably not the best thought out design. But, if your camera was doing things correctly to begin with, you wouldn't be having this problem.

If the trained monkeys at Canon broke your camera broke your camera the last time you sent it in, I'm confused about why you continue to have so much faith in their ability to give good technical advice.

As for the tip for using Scenalyzer, that came directly from this forum. Obviously Adobe monitors this forum looking for ways to help folks like you. Can you say that about Canon?

- Jack
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Old January 9th, 2002, 12:07 PM   #43
 
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I tend to avoid Premier like the plague. Dunno how many times this has saved me endless hours of grief.
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Old January 9th, 2002, 12:23 PM   #44
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Hey, Ozzie--

Speaking of "Compatible Color", remember the old CBS system with the rotating wheel? It wasn't compatible (thus its non-acceptance), but the colors were sure better back then.

Uh, oh--I'm dating myself!

Cheers, Vic
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Old January 9th, 2002, 12:35 PM   #45
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<<<-- Originally posted by Vic Owen : Hey, Ozzie-- Speaking of "Compatible Color", remember the old CBS system with the rotating wheel? It wasn't compatible (thus its non-acceptance), but the colors were sure better back then.

Uh, oh--I'm dating myself! Cheers, Vic -->>>

You are certainly dating yourself. I was still in diapers then. A bit of trivia - the CBS rotating wheel was a cheaper and better system to produce color. The problem - it wasn't compatible which the FCC demanded. BUT - that cheap and simple system did find its way into the space program and the first COLOR pictures from the moon were captured using that very same system.
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