Xl1 and Premiere: Recording at 29.95

Robin Greenidge · January 21st, 2002, 03:54 PM

Hear! Hear!
I am thinking the same thing.

Don Palomaki · January 21st, 2002, 04:48 PM

On color wheels in space. Back in the olden days when moon trip decisions were being taken (BTW, that was years before they were actually made) color wheel were no doubt lighter than NTSC color cameras and weight was a big factor in decision making. For color, just add a color wheel to a B&W camera! In the 50 color wheel was a more robust technology!

But the reason we have NTSC is the political clout of Sarnoff (from RCA/NBC) coupled with the Korean war. The war delayed the decision on which color system to use by 3 years. And over that time period the installed base of B&W sets became large enough that color had to be compatible with B&W sets.

Chris Hurd · January 21st, 2002, 06:01 PM

Robin Greenidge:

<< Jamesburg...are there differences? >>

There shouldn't be. Irvine will tell you they're better than Jamesburg; Jamesburg will tell you they're better than Irvine. My favorite service technician, Jerry, used to be in Irvine but now he's in Jamesburg. Just taking my own little survey here, is all.

Robin Greenidge · January 22nd, 2002, 10:39 AM

There is a Jerry M. at the Jamesburg facility...is that him? I have spoken with him on a few occasions.

Gary Ivanek · February 28th, 2002, 10:42 PM

Hello

I am in DV kindergarten and would appreciate an update form those who are grappling with the audio sync problems related to xl1-s/Premiere/1394 hookup. I have Premiere 6.0 on order and am nearly committed to purchasing an xl1-s.

Gary

March 7th, 2002, 02:15 PM

If you're in Kindergarten, Gary, I'm, maybe, three months into first grade. But I went through aligning an XL-1s with DV 500 for capture with a friend recently and while I don't know the exact details, I DO know that it all hinged on downloading a new patch from Pinnacle Premiere and getting some additional spec.s ($20.00) from their on-line help.

It's a huge download...premiere's latest I guess, but THAT's where my "expert" pal found the answer and as far as I know my friend is capturing w/o probs. If you want to communicate directly write me and I'll hand you to my expert!

Meg

Robin Greenidge · March 7th, 2002, 03:13 PM

Just got my camera back from Canon, it took about two months for them to obtain a part from Japan for it. They apparently replaced the main board because of some other issues I was having.

Robin Greenidge · March 7th, 2002, 03:17 PM

Just got my camera back from Canon, it took about two months for them to obtain a part from Japan for it. They apparently replaced the main board because of some other issues I was having.
I have abandoned the Premiere capture and have been using Scenalyer which has been working flawlessly!

MusarInteractive · May 12th, 2002, 03:13 PM

Hi Robin,

Your last message was that you had gotten the camera back and that you were using Scenalyzer to capture. But have the changes made to your camera resolved the XL1/Premiere issue?

Thank you.

Tim

Robin Greenidge · May 13th, 2002, 07:30 AM

Hi Tim,
I have not been using the Premiere capture feature for quite some time now but I just captured a few seconds with it and the frame rate reads 29.97fps. That to me is a good indication that Canon did fix the problem by replacing the main board. I will capture a 10 min segment later to check for audio drift and I will let you know, but at this point in time it looks as if all is well. If the frame rate reads anything but 29.97 that is a good indication that things will drift as time progresses.

Are you having some difficulty with your camera?

MusarInteractive · May 13th, 2002, 07:59 AM

Thanks for the speedy reply. I've been hanging around on the periphery of the XL1 world but haven't purchased a camera yet and this has been one of the issues I've been watching in making a final decision - though the use of Scenalyzer seems like an easy workaround.

Would appreciate your comments after you've made that 10 minute test. Thank you.

Tim

Marcus Farrar · May 13th, 2002, 03:20 PM

Has anyone tested this audio sync problem aginst OS 9 and OS 10? I also have audio problmes in OS 10 with Final Cut Pro 3. I checked the audio and sure enough the rate was 48.0005 Also dose the program you guys have used as an alternative to FCP or Premiere work on a Mac?

Robin Greenidge · May 14th, 2002, 07:04 AM

I am not sure that it works with the Mac OS or not but there is a free download at their website. Give it a try! I am assuming that it would because it is essentially a 1394 based video capture program. Here's the website http://www.scenalyzer.com/

All the best to you

May 17th, 2002, 02:33 AM

I wanted to respond to some old posts from this thread -- I wish I'd seen them when they were posted. I am in charge of testing Premiere for compatibility with DV devices at Adobe.

Don Palomaki had it right. Many NTSC XL1's capture at 48009 Hz and report it as 48000.

I actually remember Robin's case last fall -- the top-level tech support contacted me about a case that fits Robin's description. I was the one who told them about the experimental .ini switch (ForceNTSCFrameRate). This is essentially what Final Cut Pro's checkbox does, but we didn't publicize it because we made a driver change that fixed this problem -- at least for my XL1 (and tapes made with other XL1's). I am surprised to learn that the switch did not work, and I will take a closer look and maybe borrow another XL1.

If I may quote aibrahim:

> BTW, this problem is exhibited on just about any camera
> that is not a VX2000 or VX1000. I understand that Adobe
> uses those two cameras to test Premiere in house... Many
> manufacturers also test with a large number of DV
> devices...but Adobe...UGH.

aibrahim, you were misinformed. I was recruited to Adobe from Digital Origin (now part of Discreet) where I worked on what is now the Cinestream product, which was tested with and supports many dozens of cameras. (Yes, Robin, I worked on MotoDV Studio) When I came to Adobe, I was charged with setting up a similar lab. Premiere 6.0 was tested with over thirty different devices, and I buy new cameras every quarter.

And that problem is ONLY evident on the XL1.

Also, you were misinformed about the Mac. The Mac is fine, and DV editing as we now know it has been working reliably since the PowerMac 8500.

We are, however, working under certain constraints that are new for me. Adobe's DV support relies on the low-level DV drivers included with QuickTime (on the Mac) and DirectShow (on Windows). Unlike a hardware manufacturer with proprietary DV drivers, we only have access to the data from the DV stream that Apple and Microsoft pass on to us. This limits how tightly we can integrate with DV and DV devices. In any case, we work very hard to support a broad range of popular devices in a broad range of prices and markets.

That said, I heartily encourage users to investigate the alternatives from the third party hardware manufacturers. They have cool boards with great features. I can't recommend any one over the others because it would annoy the others -- besides, I don't know them really well because I spend all my time with the built-in DV support...

I love the XL1 as much as anybody on this board. It's a blast to shoot with and has unique features that do not appear on cameras costing many times the price (4-channel simultaneous capture, for example) and it's the closest thing to progressive-scan you can get in a three-chip DV camera, generally. I have spent a lot of time trying to make sure that camera works well with Premiere, but I only have one and I know that there have been a few subtle differences among units. I will continue to work to support it.

--Mike Jennings
--Adobe Dynamic Media QA

Robin Greenidge · May 17th, 2002, 07:16 AM

Just ran a couple ather quick captures using Premiere's and I still have the same problem. The capture is coming in at 29.96 fps! I guess when I did it a few days ago it was a fluke or something...Anyhow I am pretty much going to avoid capturing with Premiere and I am sticking with the Scenalyzer for my capturing. I cannot afford to lose a few hours of capture time because of synch issues.
Mike thanks for the insight, I think it is safe to say that Premiere and Canon Xl1's(not Xl1-s!) are not a good mix when it comes to plain'ol Firewire card capture.

January 21st, 2002, 06:01 PM	#63
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Robin Greenidge: << Jamesburg...are there differences? >> There shouldn't be. Irvine will tell you they're better than Jamesburg; Jamesburg will tell you they're better than Irvine. My favorite service technician, Jerry, used to be in Irvine but now he's in Jamesburg. Just taking my own little survey here, is all. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 28th, 2002, 10:42 PM	#65
Gary Ivanek Tourist Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 1	xl1-s , Premiere, 1394 Hello I am in DV kindergarten and would appreciate an update form those who are grappling with the audio sync problems related to xl1-s/Premiere/1394 hookup. I have Premiere 6.0 on order and am nearly committed to purchasing an xl1-s. Gary __________________ Gary

March 7th, 2002, 02:15 PM	#66
MegMacDonald Posts: n/a	Premiere If you're in Kindergarten, Gary, I'm, maybe, three months into first grade. But I went through aligning an XL-1s with DV 500 for capture with a friend recently and while I don't know the exact details, I DO know that it all hinged on downloading a new patch from Pinnacle Premiere and getting some additional spec.s ($20.00) from their on-line help. It's a huge download...premiere's latest I guess, but THAT's where my "expert" pal found the answer and as far as I know my friend is capturing w/o probs. If you want to communicate directly write me and I'll hand you to my expert! Meg

May 12th, 2002, 03:13 PM	#69
MusarInteractive New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Franconia NH 03580 USA Posts: 19	The Final Word? Hi Robin, Your last message was that you had gotten the camera back and that you were using Scenalyzer to capture. But have the changes made to your camera resolved the XL1/Premiere issue? Thank you. Tim

May 13th, 2002, 07:59 AM	#71
MusarInteractive New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Franconia NH 03580 USA Posts: 19	Hi Robin and Thank You Thanks for the speedy reply. I've been hanging around on the periphery of the XL1 world but haven't purchased a camera yet and this has been one of the issues I've been watching in making a final decision - though the use of Scenalyzer seems like an easy workaround. Would appreciate your comments after you've made that 10 minute test. Thank you. Tim

January 21st, 2002, 03:54 PM	#61
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Hear! Hear! I am thinking the same thing.

January 21st, 2002, 04:48 PM	#62
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	On color wheels in space. Back in the olden days when moon trip decisions were being taken (BTW, that was years before they were actually made) color wheel were no doubt lighter than NTSC color cameras and weight was a big factor in decision making. For color, just add a color wheel to a B&W camera! In the 50 color wheel was a more robust technology! But the reason we have NTSC is the political clout of Sarnoff (from RCA/NBC) coupled with the Korean war. The war delayed the decision on which color system to use by 3 years. And over that time period the installed base of B&W sets became large enough that color had to be compatible with B&W sets.

January 22nd, 2002, 10:39 AM	#64
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	There is a Jerry M. at the Jamesburg facility...is that him? I have spoken with him on a few occasions.

March 7th, 2002, 03:13 PM	#67
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Just got my camera back from Canon, it took about two months for them to obtain a part from Japan for it. They apparently replaced the main board because of some other issues I was having.

March 7th, 2002, 03:17 PM	#68
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Just got my camera back from Canon, it took about two months for them to obtain a part from Japan for it. They apparently replaced the main board because of some other issues I was having. I have abandoned the Premiere capture and have been using Scenalyer which has been working flawlessly!

May 13th, 2002, 07:30 AM	#70
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Hi Tim, I have not been using the Premiere capture feature for quite some time now but I just captured a few seconds with it and the frame rate reads 29.97fps. That to me is a good indication that Canon did fix the problem by replacing the main board. I will capture a 10 min segment later to check for audio drift and I will let you know, but at this point in time it looks as if all is well. If the frame rate reads anything but 29.97 that is a good indication that things will drift as time progresses. Are you having some difficulty with your camera?

May 13th, 2002, 03:20 PM	#72
Marcus Farrar Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Raleigh, NC USA Posts: 110	Has anyone tested this audio sync problem aginst OS 9 and OS 10? I also have audio problmes in OS 10 with Final Cut Pro 3. I checked the audio and sure enough the rate was 48.0005 Also dose the program you guys have used as an alternative to FCP or Premiere work on a Mac? __________________ Marcus Farrar Production Director Katana Productions www.katanapro.com

May 14th, 2002, 07:04 AM	#73
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	I am not sure that it works with the Mac OS or not but there is a free download at their website. Give it a try! I am assuming that it would because it is essentially a 1394 based video capture program. Here's the website http://www.scenalyzer.com/ All the best to you

May 17th, 2002, 02:33 AM	#74
MikeJennings Posts: n/a	Premiere XL1 Testing I wanted to respond to some old posts from this thread -- I wish I'd seen them when they were posted. I am in charge of testing Premiere for compatibility with DV devices at Adobe. Don Palomaki had it right. Many NTSC XL1's capture at 48009 Hz and report it as 48000. I actually remember Robin's case last fall -- the top-level tech support contacted me about a case that fits Robin's description. I was the one who told them about the experimental .ini switch (ForceNTSCFrameRate). This is essentially what Final Cut Pro's checkbox does, but we didn't publicize it because we made a driver change that fixed this problem -- at least for my XL1 (and tapes made with other XL1's). I am surprised to learn that the switch did not work, and I will take a closer look and maybe borrow another XL1. If I may quote aibrahim: > BTW, this problem is exhibited on just about any camera > that is not a VX2000 or VX1000. I understand that Adobe > uses those two cameras to test Premiere in house... Many > manufacturers also test with a large number of DV > devices...but Adobe...UGH. aibrahim, you were misinformed. I was recruited to Adobe from Digital Origin (now part of Discreet) where I worked on what is now the Cinestream product, which was tested with and supports many dozens of cameras. (Yes, Robin, I worked on MotoDV Studio) When I came to Adobe, I was charged with setting up a similar lab. Premiere 6.0 was tested with over thirty different devices, and I buy new cameras every quarter. And that problem is ONLY evident on the XL1. Also, you were misinformed about the Mac. The Mac is fine, and DV editing as we now know it has been working reliably since the PowerMac 8500. We are, however, working under certain constraints that are new for me. Adobe's DV support relies on the low-level DV drivers included with QuickTime (on the Mac) and DirectShow (on Windows). Unlike a hardware manufacturer with proprietary DV drivers, we only have access to the data from the DV stream that Apple and Microsoft pass on to us. This limits how tightly we can integrate with DV and DV devices. In any case, we work very hard to support a broad range of popular devices in a broad range of prices and markets. That said, I heartily encourage users to investigate the alternatives from the third party hardware manufacturers. They have cool boards with great features. I can't recommend any one over the others because it would annoy the others -- besides, I don't know them really well because I spend all my time with the built-in DV support... I love the XL1 as much as anybody on this board. It's a blast to shoot with and has unique features that do not appear on cameras costing many times the price (4-channel simultaneous capture, for example) and it's the closest thing to progressive-scan you can get in a three-chip DV camera, generally. I have spent a lot of time trying to make sure that camera works well with Premiere, but I only have one and I know that there have been a few subtle differences among units. I will continue to work to support it. --Mike Jennings --Adobe Dynamic Media QA

May 17th, 2002, 07:16 AM	#75
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Hi Tim Just ran a couple ather quick captures using Premiere's and I still have the same problem. The capture is coming in at 29.96 fps! I guess when I did it a few days ago it was a fluke or something...Anyhow I am pretty much going to avoid capturing with Premiere and I am sticking with the Scenalyzer for my capturing. I cannot afford to lose a few hours of capture time because of synch issues. Mike thanks for the insight, I think it is safe to say that Premiere and Canon Xl1's(not Xl1-s!) are not a good mix when it comes to plain'ol Firewire card capture.