XL1S 1/30 Frame vs. Normal mode with FilmLook Post Production at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders > Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog

Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog
Can't find it on the XL1 Watchdog site? Discuss it here.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 18th, 2004, 07:08 AM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 363
XL1S 1/30 Frame vs. Normal mode with FilmLook Post Production

At first this might seem like something for the FilmLook area but I think it's more of a XL1S issue.


For a while now I've been experimenting with the infamous "film look" and have tried a number of things but of course the number one thing you can do to make it look like film is light / shoot it like film which I think we've done.

I've shot a lot of footage in Frame mode at 1/30 and I have to say that I'm DAMN impressed with the filmic quality of the footage as is my DP and others that have looked at the footage who aren't in the DV scene.

For most post-production 'Film Look' filters, programs, ect. they recommend you shoot in 1/60 Normal mode and then run it through their filters / programs. This is the most 'video' possible format.

I was lucky enough to be able to try Magic Bullet at a client's shop. I've tried a couple of the other plug-ins like Grahame Nattress' "Film Effects" and honestly... none of them look as much like film as the straight video out of the XL1S in 1/30 Frame mode. They look like processed video.

I read a review of the assorted Film Look filters and techniques over on the LA Final Cut Pro User's Group site (an amazing group of members over there including a ton of industry professionals) that can be found here:

http://www.lafcpug.org/feature_video_film.html

and the XL1S in 1/30 Frame got one of the highest scores straight out of the camera. (4 out of a possible 5)

I'm wondering what other XL1/S owners have been finding and if this is what you have found as well. I know there are a lot of discussions going on over in the Film Look subject area but I specifically want to talk about it in regard to the XL1.
Kevin Burnfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 18th, 2004, 07:57 AM   #2
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: N. Myrtle Beach, SC
Posts: 31
It is very nice if you can keep it in camera like that. I've shot in 1/60 and 1/30 with my XL-1s and found that the output is gorgeous at 1/30 semi-progressive.

I'm also a big fan of DVFilm maker (www.dvfilm.com) as a stand alone "filmic" processing program. It's inexpensive, fast rendering, clean outputting with no artifacts, etc.

They have a demo program so you can test your footage with it before you fork out $95 for it (very cheap BTW). It's excellent.
__________________
Now in production on "The Redneck Riviera" at www.aiptasiafilms.com
John Harris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 18th, 2004, 09:32 AM   #3
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 6,781
Agreed, Kevin. It's the Frame mode image that drew me to the camera to begin with (as well as the unique rendition of skin tones) and has kept me there.

I sound a bit like a broken record, since I just posted about this, but we shot the Jerry Seinfeld webmovies with this configuration and the Frame mode was a great asset. I believe that having the "filmlook" applied in-camera is even useful psychologically during shooting, as the image on the monitor and even the viewfinder is more pleasing to look at.

I literally (as in 15 minutes ago) got off the phone with the producer of some spots that we will be doing this week, and this very issue was the subject of our conversation. I brought it up because of the "can't go back" issue of shooting Frame mode as opposed to shooting 60i and doing the post work, and also the 25% resolution loss, but economics helped dictate the answer, plus we both felt the agency folk would be happier with the images we were shooting while on set.
__________________
Charles Papert
www.charlespapert.com
Charles Papert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 18th, 2004, 04:19 PM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 65
Can you comment on the 25% reduction loss?
Kent Metschan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2004, 03:31 AM   #5
RED Code Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 12,514
I usually shoot in frame mode at 1/60 (or since I'm in PAL at 1/50)
instead of 1/30. At what shutter rates did you shoot the amex
commercials, Charles? I somehow remember you shooting that
at 1/60 as well.

The "25%" resolution loss happens due to the way the camera
does frame mode. You can view it as a sort of de-interlace filter,
only different (it doesn't work with the shifted points in time I
believe). Every de-interlacer will have a loss of resolution up to
50%. The frame mode does way better since it can work with
the signal coming of the chips etc.
__________________

Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com
DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef

Join the DV Challenge | Lady X

Search DVinfo.net for quick answers | Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors
Rob Lohman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2004, 05:01 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 363
Thanks Rob,

I knew the answer in my own head but wasn't sure I could explain it without using my hands and sound effects. :)
Kevin Burnfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2004, 08:52 PM   #7
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Brossard, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 142
Kevin

You wouldn't believe when all my Betacam and PD150 friends does a double take when I show stuff I shoot on my XL1 in FRAME mode!!!

This was also one of the features (besides the changeable lens and the cool looking camera) that lured me into the dark side <grin>. I was hooked.

I tried all types of experimentation. Using plug-ins required that I had to render all my footage (I'm using Adobe Premiere 6.5 on a Pentium box). I've even went the de-interlace route. But the results never comes close to the FRAME mode of the XL1/s.

On the XL1 the lowest shutter speed that I can go is 1/60th in FRAME mode. Has that changed on the XL1s?

To go 1/30th, 1/15th and 1/8th I have to switch to NORMAL mode.

I shoot entirely in FRAME mode now for everything except in situation where I need to shoot footage for TV that needs to match the BETACAMS (multi-cam shoots). Even the NORMAL mode matches and sometimes betters the shots from BETACAMS.

Norman Woo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2004, 10:01 PM   #8
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 169
We shoot frame mode in Manual and can go all the way down to 1/8th. Or up to rather. :) Funny reverse logic on that one.
Jacob Ehrichs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2004, 11:00 PM   #9
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Brossard, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 142
Hi Jacob

Which camera are you using? XL1 or XL1s?

I have the XL1 and I just tried all modes and I cannot go "slower" than 1/60th in both FRAME and NORMAL mode using the shutter buttons.

In NORMAL mode only, I can select 1/30th, 1/15th, 1/8th by using the Digital Effects button
Norman Woo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2004, 08:12 AM   #10
RED Code Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 12,514
The XL1 needs to use digital effects button to get that low indeed.
The XL1S does not. It simply will allow you to go "lower"
__________________

Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com
DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef

Join the DV Challenge | Lady X

Search DVinfo.net for quick answers | Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors
Rob Lohman is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders > Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:23 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network