Come on Canon, is this TOO much to ask for?! at DVinfo.net

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Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog
Can't find it on the XL1 Watchdog site? Discuss it here.


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Old November 21st, 2002, 11:59 PM   #1
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Come on Canon, is this TOO much to ask for?!

I sure hope the next model of XL-1 or the XL-2 has this feature on it.

Check out this little image I made. A lot people who have used an XL-1/XL-1S for filmmaking would have love to have this on their camera.

http://users.ev1.net/~slconway/xl-1.jpg

Anybody else agree with me or what?

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Old November 22nd, 2002, 12:06 AM   #2
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Nice mock-up. You'll have people thinking this button's already a feature on the cam. Then they'll be back here whining when they can't find it. <g>
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Old November 22nd, 2002, 12:12 AM   #3
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You forgot the 120 fps mode (for slow motion video).

Incidentally, one must be cautious when mentioning "30 fps" or "24 fps." NTSC is 29.97 (and change) fps, and 24P work is actually done at 23.98 fps.
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Old November 22nd, 2002, 01:40 AM   #4
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I thought someone posted that 24 fps was hard to use because when taken into an NLE, it was reinterpreted as 30 fps, or somesuch. I could be wrong. It made me less sad that my camera didn't have it, at any rate.
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Old November 22nd, 2002, 01:57 AM   #5
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Well, there are plenty of ways to edit 24P footage (actually 23.98 fps) natively on a PC, including using Adobe After effects. In the final equation, a 3:2 pulldown is used to derive a 29.97 fps, NTSC-compliant signal for viewing on standard television monitors.

But Josh is probably referring to my objections to the so-called "24P" prosumer Panasonic camcorder, found in this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...5&pagenumber=7

Someone mentioned that the new camera derives 24P by way of 60i, which, if true, is a backwards signal processing trick. Has anyone confirmed that this is how the Pana camera works? (I haven't been paying attention to the Pana boards...)
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Old November 22nd, 2002, 10:45 AM   #6
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I thought 24P is just 24.0 fps (when using a film camera). It only
becomes 23.98 fps when converting it to NTSC?

Faster speeds would be essential as well indeed... for slow motion
work.
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Old November 22nd, 2002, 10:56 AM   #7
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<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Knecht Schmidt : You forgot the 120 fps mode (for slow motion video).

-->>>

I think that's a really damn good idea actually. If a DV camera can be made to take less FPS, then it should be able to take more as well. I would buy a DV camera that could "overcrank" over any other, regardless of other features.
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Old November 22nd, 2002, 06:27 PM   #8
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<<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Couper : If a DV camera can be made to take less FPS, then it should be able to take more as well. -->>>

Slow motion video and film (high acquisition speed) exemplify the classic engineering problem of "gain bandwidth product": you might be able to get more, and you might be able to get faster, but to get more and faster at the same time becomes very difficult. The chief limitations on building an "overcranking" video camera are the image aquisition chips and data throughput speed. In our case, the faster is fps and the more is image quality.

First, the sensor chip (CCD, CMOS, or whatnot) must be able to collect enough light in a shorter amount of time. Many digital still cameras feature a "bracketing" function (equivalent to the "gain" on digital video cameras) which allows you to effectively up the "ASA" (speed) of the digital "film" (sensor). The tradeoff comes in the form of "grain" (noise), and this is true whether you use film or video. Video noise, I think, is good deal uglier than film grain, though, because you tend to get color artifacting not found with film grains.

Second, the camera's circuity has to ship the data around faster: faster from the image sensor to the memory buffer; the signal processing circuitry has to be faster; the final storage medium has to be faster (you could never build an overcranked camera that used MiniDV tapes, for example); and the busses linking the components must be fast enough to handle all the date being fed through. (Incidentally, the film camera analogy holds. Film cameras built to overcrank have faster, more rugged drives and more precision works to move film from mag to gate to can. If the film slips, the shot is ruined.)

When I worked at the Graphics Lab at the Institute for Creative Technologies in Marina del Rey, we used very high end Uniqvision UC-1030 cameras that got about 80 frames per second in the Light Stage 2.0 Lab. The images were captured to the SCSI hard drives of a Wintel box. The frame grabber boards (Imagenationís PXD-1000) were in the $1000+ range. The computer's chip was able to keep up with the signal processing of each image that was fed into it, but the bandwidth bottleneck was the PCI bus, and Tim Hawkins and the other folks who were working with the Light Stage had to solve a few problems before they could actually get things to work. (Read more about Light Stage 2 and other fun computer graphics research at http://www.debevec.org.)

Even with the highest end production video cameras, Sony's 24P CineAltas, overcranking is faked using the hokiest of signal processing contrivances. I do not forsee the XL2 or any production digital video camera as having a 120 fps overcranking mode for quite some years. But, if you want to experiment with building your own, I recommend reading up on the computer vision (or "machine vision") literature. The computer vision field by necessity requires much higher speed and resolution than production tools, and if there's something of a tinkerer in you (and something of a millionaire), it's great fun to try to put together your own camera system and experiment.
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