Question about 24p operation with NeoHDV and JVC HD110 at DVinfo.net

Bill Ravens · August 5th, 2007, 12:45 PM

I've made some JVC HD110 firmware upgrades simultaneously with updating Cineform NeoHDV to version 3.0.5. I'm seeing some changes to the reported frame-rates of m2t files and framerates of converted CFHD intermediate files. I'd like a confirmation of what I'm seeing from David Newman.

Here's a summary of what's happening:
Before the updates:
m2t files recorded in 24p would automatically be converted to 24p CFHD files, WITHOUT checking the "Remove 3-2 pulldown" button in HDLink preferences.

After the updates:
Now, m2t files recorded in 24p are converted to 60p CFHD Intermediate files if the default preferences are used.
If I want to maintain the 24fps frame-rate, I MUST check the "Remove 3-2 pulldown" button.

Vegas reports the native m2t files as 24p and the converted CFHD Intermediate files as 60 fps, however, other playback devices report the native m2t files as 60fps even if they were recorded as 24p.

There is no change to the way 60p or 30p files work. They convert properly with all the default preferences settings.

Has HDLink changed the way it handles 24p files from the HD110?
Conversely, perhaps the HD110 is flagging the file header differently with the Firmware update?

This may sound very confusing. The bottom line question is this:
Do I need to check the "Remove 3-2 pulldown" button in HDLink preferences, when generating 24p CFHD Intermediate files? I never had to do this before.

David, can you answer this?
Thanx

P.S. Just for general info, JVC issued a firmware update to correct a problem with 24p files conversion in FCP. The thread related to the firmware update is here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=100245
and
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HD...00110_upgrade/

David Newman · August 5th, 2007, 01:28 PM

Please up load a sample M2T file and we will see if the stream has changed.

Bill Ravens · August 5th, 2007, 01:51 PM

David...

I'd be glad to. Please tell me what the best method is to send you a 13 Mb file, and an address.

Edit: Uploaded to supportcenteronline.com

Thanx

David Newman · August 5th, 2007, 02:44 PM

Bill,

I'm not in tech support so I can't get that file. Send me an email through DVInfo.net, and pass me a link to that upload (or use yousendit.com.)

Bill Ravens · August 5th, 2007, 03:57 PM

David...

I sent you a link to the file via DVINFO.NET.
Best,
Bill

David Newman · August 5th, 2007, 04:18 PM

Thanks for the upload. It seems to be a bug on our end not JVC's, we will get it fixed ASAP.

David Newman · August 5th, 2007, 05:00 PM

Fixed. It was one of the XDCAM additions that broke 24p support from JVC, will be in the next build. Build prior and including v3.0.2 didn't have this issue, can you use that until the fix is posted? Aslo the remove pulldown option will likely work fine.

Bill Ravens · August 5th, 2007, 08:09 PM

NP. Thanx. I can live with it.
You guys are terrific. Support on Sundays? Unheard of!!
Thanx, again.

..Bill

Brian Standing · January 1st, 2009, 10:30 PM

Hmmm.... getting similar problems with HDLINK in my recently purchased copy of Neo Scene. Could it be this bug is back in Neo Scene after being fixed in Neo HDV?

David Newman · January 1st, 2009, 10:55 PM

No need and don't use the Neo Scene "Convert to 24p" option for 720p sources, not the same bug. All the recent JVC HD camera have native 24p modes, no pulldown or conversion required.

Brian Standing · January 1st, 2009, 11:39 PM

Hi David,

Thanks for the quick response. I'm experiencing very similar symptoms in Neo Scene with my JVC HD100. 720 24p captured from tape over OHCI 1394 via HDLINK shows up as 59.940 video files. Video plays very fast and choppy, but curiously, audio appears to be proper speed and length and extends considerably beyond video on my Vegas 8.0c timeline.

Although checking the "Convert to 24p" button appears to fix the problem, I gather from your post that this performs a conversion that should be unnecessary with 720 24p footage.

I have a support ticket in on this. Am I correct in assuming that this is a new bug in Neo Scene?

David Newman · January 2nd, 2009, 10:04 AM

The odd part is I made my statement after testing HD100 24p footage with NEO Scene, and it worked fine. So a support ticket is the way to go, although not sure it is a general bug. Support will be on Monday, so use your workaround in the meantime.

Idea: Is this only happenning for capture from tape, i.e. does it also happen when converting M2T files?

Brian Standing · January 2nd, 2009, 10:09 AM

O.K., thanks David, for the response. I'll see what support has to say on Monday.

Will using the "convert to 24P" check box for 720 24p material degrade the resulting footage in any way? (By unnecessary transcoding, for example?)

David Newman · January 2nd, 2009, 10:20 AM

It is not impacting quality. Please give the m2t conversion a try.

Brian Standing · January 2nd, 2009, 11:35 AM

m2t conversion works fine.

If quality isn't affected, I can just check the 24p radio button.
Thanks for the feedback.

August 5th, 2007, 12:45 PM	#1
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Question about 24p operation with NeoHDV and JVC HD110 I've made some JVC HD110 firmware upgrades simultaneously with updating Cineform NeoHDV to version 3.0.5. I'm seeing some changes to the reported frame-rates of m2t files and framerates of converted CFHD intermediate files. I'd like a confirmation of what I'm seeing from David Newman. Here's a summary of what's happening: Before the updates: m2t files recorded in 24p would automatically be converted to 24p CFHD files, WITHOUT checking the "Remove 3-2 pulldown" button in HDLink preferences. After the updates: Now, m2t files recorded in 24p are converted to 60p CFHD Intermediate files if the default preferences are used. If I want to maintain the 24fps frame-rate, I MUST check the "Remove 3-2 pulldown" button. Vegas reports the native m2t files as 24p and the converted CFHD Intermediate files as 60 fps, however, other playback devices report the native m2t files as 60fps even if they were recorded as 24p. There is no change to the way 60p or 30p files work. They convert properly with all the default preferences settings. Has HDLink changed the way it handles 24p files from the HD110? Conversely, perhaps the HD110 is flagging the file header differently with the Firmware update? This may sound very confusing. The bottom line question is this: Do I need to check the "Remove 3-2 pulldown" button in HDLink preferences, when generating 24p CFHD Intermediate files? I never had to do this before. David, can you answer this? Thanx P.S. Just for general info, JVC issued a firmware update to correct a problem with 24p files conversion in FCP. The thread related to the firmware update is here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=100245 and http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HD...00110_upgrade/ Last edited by Bill Ravens; August 5th, 2007 at 01:16 PM.

August 5th, 2007, 01:28 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Please up load a sample M2T file and we will see if the stream has changed. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 5th, 2007, 01:51 PM	#3
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	David... I'd be glad to. Please tell me what the best method is to send you a 13 Mb file, and an address. Edit: Uploaded to supportcenteronline.com Thanx Last edited by Bill Ravens; August 5th, 2007 at 02:28 PM.

August 5th, 2007, 02:44 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Bill, I'm not in tech support so I can't get that file. Send me an email through DVInfo.net, and pass me a link to that upload (or use yousendit.com.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 5th, 2007, 04:18 PM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Thanks for the upload. It seems to be a bug on our end not JVC's, we will get it fixed ASAP. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 5th, 2007, 03:57 PM	#5
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	David... I sent you a link to the file via DVINFO.NET. Best, Bill

August 5th, 2007, 05:00 PM	#7
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Fixed. It was one of the XDCAM additions that broke 24p support from JVC, will be in the next build. Build prior and including v3.0.2 didn't have this issue, can you use that until the fix is posted? Aslo the remove pulldown option will likely work fine. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 5th, 2007, 08:09 PM	#8
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	NP. Thanx. I can live with it. You guys are terrific. Support on Sundays? Unheard of!! Thanx, again. ..Bill

January 1st, 2009, 10:30 PM	#9
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	Hmmm.... getting similar problems with HDLINK in my recently purchased copy of Neo Scene. Could it be this bug is back in Neo Scene after being fixed in Neo HDV? __________________ http://www.prolefeedstudios.com/blog/ Documentary for the masses!

January 1st, 2009, 10:55 PM	#10
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	No need and don't use the Neo Scene "Convert to 24p" option for 720p sources, not the same bug. All the recent JVC HD camera have native 24p modes, no pulldown or conversion required. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 1st, 2009, 11:39 PM	#11
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	Hi David, Thanks for the quick response. I'm experiencing very similar symptoms in Neo Scene with my JVC HD100. 720 24p captured from tape over OHCI 1394 via HDLINK shows up as 59.940 video files. Video plays very fast and choppy, but curiously, audio appears to be proper speed and length and extends considerably beyond video on my Vegas 8.0c timeline. Although checking the "Convert to 24p" button appears to fix the problem, I gather from your post that this performs a conversion that should be unnecessary with 720 24p footage. I have a support ticket in on this. Am I correct in assuming that this is a new bug in Neo Scene? __________________ http://www.prolefeedstudios.com/blog/ Documentary for the masses!

January 2nd, 2009, 10:04 AM	#12
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	The odd part is I made my statement after testing HD100 24p footage with NEO Scene, and it worked fine. So a support ticket is the way to go, although not sure it is a general bug. Support will be on Monday, so use your workaround in the meantime. Idea: Is this only happenning for capture from tape, i.e. does it also happen when converting M2T files? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 2nd, 2009, 10:09 AM	#13
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	O.K., thanks David, for the response. I'll see what support has to say on Monday. Will using the "convert to 24P" check box for 720 24p material degrade the resulting footage in any way? (By unnecessary transcoding, for example?) __________________ http://www.prolefeedstudios.com/blog/ Documentary for the masses!

January 2nd, 2009, 10:20 AM	#14
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	It is not impacting quality. Please give the m2t conversion a try. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 2nd, 2009, 11:35 AM	#15
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	m2t conversion works fine. If quality isn't affected, I can just check the 24p radio button. Thanks for the feedback. __________________ http://www.prolefeedstudios.com/blog/ Documentary for the masses!