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Old September 13th, 2007, 09:09 AM   #1
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Cineform Information!

Hi All,

Will someone please explaine to me as what I need? I use Vegas 7d film in HDV and use Canon XHA1. I was on Cineform website and I was confused as which product I should be buying? NEO or Aspect HD or ...??

Thanks in advance
Matthew
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Old September 13th, 2007, 09:36 AM   #2
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Using Vegas and your camera I'd suggest:
NEO HDV

NEO HDV is capable of 1440x1080 which is your camera's (Canon XHA1) HDV specs.
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Old September 13th, 2007, 10:44 AM   #3
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NeoHDV is what you will need. It makes editing a snap. Capture in .avi fromat files, and edit with ease, and for quick renders in Vegas. You have a choice of 5 quality levels, but I always use high.

What you are getting for your dollars is capture utility and a codec. The capture utility is great for doing 24p pull down so you can edit in straight 24p. Even if you don't use that, it still scence detects, and converts you footage to the intermediate editing fiiles you need to use to make editing less processor intensive in Vegas. The codec is then available in Vegas to allow you to render out.

Vegas 8, though there have been reported issues, works fine for me with the Cineform process. I understand Cineform just put out an upgrade that deals with an issue there. One thing I discovered about 8 is it won't recompress portions of your project that have not been affected by transitions or edits-- and that appears to be a change to me.
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Old October 17th, 2007, 09:21 AM   #4
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Will the Cineform capture remove pull down on both the HV20 and A1 when using the "24" modes with both cameras? Will this assist in mixing footage from these two cams?

Oh yes... and how much larger are the files than the regular m2t (standard HDV) format?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos View Post
NeoHDV is what you will need. It makes editing a snap. Capture in .avi fromat files, and edit with ease, and for quick renders in Vegas. You have a choice of 5 quality levels, but I always use high.

What you are getting for your dollars is capture utility and a codec. The capture utility is great for doing 24p pull down so you can edit in straight 24p. Even if you don't use that, it still scence detects, and converts you footage to the intermediate editing fiiles you need to use to make editing less processor intensive in Vegas. The codec is then available in Vegas to allow you to render out.

Vegas 8, though there have been reported issues, works fine for me with the Cineform process. I understand Cineform just put out an upgrade that deals with an issue there. One thing I discovered about 8 is it won't recompress portions of your project that have not been affected by transitions or edits-- and that appears to be a change to me.
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Old October 17th, 2007, 10:32 AM   #5
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File size, figure around 3x of an m2t file.

With NeoHDV I generally capture on the fly, converting HV20 footage as I ingest it. It removes the HV20 pull down, whereas most editing programs do not work with the HV20 form of 24p to remove pull down, and that is why this is essential to me.

As far as A1, I assume it also remove pull down there.

If you have a lot of scenes, and you are not sure which one you will be using, you can capture everything in .m2t format, and then convert individual file you want to use before editing in NeoHDV.

One thing to know about Vegas and Cineform. The preview of Vegas is not near as sharp when using Cineform files, as it is with the HDV files. I haven't tried to tweak it, but I hope either Vegas or Cineform is working on a resolution.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 03:24 PM   #6
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But I assume the final output is at least as sharp as HDV files correct?

Wow! 3x the size of m2t's... do your archive the cineform files and just accept the fact that it's larger?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos View Post
One thing to know about Vegas and Cineform. The preview of Vegas is not near as sharp when using Cineform files, as it is with the HDV files. I haven't tried to tweak it, but I hope either Vegas or Cineform is working on a resolution.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 01:51 PM   #7
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Personally, my workflow is to capture all of the m2t files directly from the camera, with a naming scheme that I like and all that jazz, as scene detected files.

Then, I'll convert them all to cineform high, and do my editing. When I am done, I delete the Cineform files. If for some reason, the technical department bounces my project or somesuch, I can always reconvert the m2ts to cineform, and then be good to go to fix the edit. Since I've already got the captured files, the conversions will always be frame-exact, and replace themselves quite nicely. When I open Premiere, it will never know they were gone. :)

Carl
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Old October 19th, 2007, 02:32 PM   #8
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Carl, that's pretty clever. I never realized that deleting the clips when all is done saves lots of space, and I assume you delete these from the media bin (or whatever you call it in Premiere :) ) and not from the timeline.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 03:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Middleton View Post
Personally, my workflow is to capture all of the m2t files directly from the camera, with a naming scheme that I like and all that jazz, as scene detected files.

Then, I'll convert them all to cineform high, and do my editing. When I am done, I delete the Cineform files. If for some reason, the technical department bounces my project or somesuch, I can always reconvert the m2ts to cineform, and then be good to go to fix the edit. Since I've already got the captured files, the conversions will always be frame-exact, and replace themselves quite nicely. When I open Premiere, it will never know they were gone. :)

Carl
That's cool Carl...but wouldn't it be quicker if you just capture the M2t and the Cineform AVI at the same time?
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Old October 19th, 2007, 04:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Fierlinger View Post
Carl, that's pretty clever. I never realized that deleting the clips when all is done saves lots of space, and I assume you delete these from the media bin (or whatever you call it in Premiere :) ) and not from the timeline.
You don't delete anything in the Premiere project. When you are totally finished editing and exporting, you save an exit. Then in the OS Explorer, you browse to the Cineform files and delete them. If it turns out you need to make changes, you regenerate the Cineform files from HDLink BEFORE opening Premiere, that way files on the drive will be exactly the way Premiere left them when it last used the project.

If you delete anything out of the project window, it will disappear from the timeline, so that is definitely not the way to go. Deleting items in your project window will never save space, but offlining them with "Delete Source Media" selected will free up space.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 04:26 PM   #11
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Carl, I thought that when you said Premiere, you meant Vegas, perhaps a slip of the tongue. (What Happens in Vegas, to use a well known name.)

You are right, I made a not well thought out assertion. I already use a similar workflow myself by interchanging my 1080p source files with 720p just for ease of editing in Vegas before I switch back to 1080p when done. It just never occurred to me that the 720p files can be at that point deleted and easily replaced if the need arises.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 05:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian G. Thompson View Post
That's cool Carl...but wouldn't it be quicker if you just capture the M2t and the Cineform AVI at the same time?
I typically capture and convert at the same time, but (unless I've missed a new feature in HDLink) it can be very tedious to keep the names of the files in sync due to the way HDLink does the scene file numbering. If I have multiple tapes or multiple captures from the same tape, all the scene file numbers are jacked up. If I rename the files, then I have to rename them twice, which is a royal pain doing it once, let alone twice. I'm thinking it may save to to capture the m2t files, fix all the file names, and then do the conversion. Is there any easier way to do this?

Best,
Christopher
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Old October 19th, 2007, 06:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Glaeser View Post
I typically capture and convert at the same time, but (unless I've missed a new feature in HDLink) it can be very tedious to keep the names of the files in sync due to the way HDLink does the scene file numbering. If I have multiple tapes or multiple captures from the same tape, all the scene file numbers are jacked up. If I rename the files, then I have to rename them twice, which is a royal pain doing it once, let alone twice. I'm thinking it may save to to capture the m2t files, fix all the file names, and then do the conversion. Is there any easier way to do this?

Best,
Christopher
No...I don't necessarily have a better way of doing this. But just seeing how his workflow goes I thought if you captured both at the same time...then put all your M2t files in a storage folder for safe keeping...name your AVI's to a specific nomenclature...edit away...when completely done you can delete the AVI's off your hard drive. If you ever have to come back to that project you can always convert your M2T files back to avi with HDLink and proceed. I have not done it this way myself...but...I believe this would work. You think?

Edit: I think the only difference with Carl's and the one I mentioned is I'm capturing and converting at the same time at the very beginning. I thought it migh save him a little time.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 07:00 PM   #14
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I think I convinced myself that even though I am only shooting in HD, NEO 2k would be worth the extra $200 because it supports Alpha channels in AE whereas the lower versions do not.

Since I plan on mixing video and animations and using AE for compositing this seemed like an important plus and worth the money.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 07:19 PM   #15
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Jim,

The lack of alpha channels in aspectHD is the one thing that makes me whine more than anything, for the same reason. :) I've been getting by using QT/Animation for my graphics, but it adds a lot of render time....

Now....
As far as my workflow, I've personally just gotten used to remembering vaguely where on a tape a clip is, etc, so I end up with ProjectA Z1U Tape 2 - 04.m2t and ProjectA Z1U Tape 2 - 04 - 0001.avi etc etc.... It's not too annoying IMO, and I've been typically ending up with 6-8 tapes per project, of mostly small clips. :D Sure, it's annoying, but it's definitely not more annoying than logging clips by hand. :D And thanks Mike, that was exactly what I meant for replacing the files. Done this a time or two? :) The only reason I don't do the conversion at the same time is to make sure I don't run into crashes, I had a few issues when dealing with the sheer amount of capturing I do at one time. Also, if I remember right, it makes me wait until the conversion completes before capturing the next tape. I'd rather capture speedily and then have it convert them while I sleep. :)

C
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