CineForm HDMI Recorder Concept Posted

Stephen Armour · March 21st, 2008, 09:52 AM

Duhhhhhhh. Excuse my ignorance, but since when does any cam have

"bi-directional USB or e-sata" ports with video out? Sounds like any portable USB/eSATA drive!

And even more, why would that replace CF? One of the reasons we use it in the field is to process the video from the SDI or HDMI before it's compressed, thus getting the bump to 10-bit and 4:2:2 and having ready to edit material when we return to the studio.

If they're talking "removable" as in RED or something, this news is in the wrong place.

Fredrik-Larsson · March 21st, 2008, 10:44 AM

I think that he ment CF in the term Compact Flash and not CF as in Cineform... it can be a bit confusing... iVDR seem to be a new standard for removable disk. Check out http://www.ivdr.org/iVDR/ivdr_e.html for more info on it. Basically that would be the storage part of the solution. Probably more manufacturers are making solutions that bridges between a camera and the storage in the same fashion the Cineform HDMI recorder will.

Stephen Armour · March 21st, 2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredrik-Larsson

I think that he ment CF in the term Compact Flash and not CF as in Cineform... it can be a bit confusing... iVDR seem to be a new standard for removable disk. Check out http://www.ivdr.org/iVDR/ivdr_e.html for more info on it. Basically that would be the storage part of the solution. Probably more manufacturers are making solutions that bridges between a camera and the storage in the same fashion the Cineform HDMI recorder will.

Okay, that makes a whole lot more sense!

Light begins to shine thru the mud of the ruins of my chocolate-clogged neural network.........

Stephen Armour · March 21st, 2008, 12:29 PM

iVDR seems like a short-lived bridge technology to me.........(sort of like BluRay will prove to be).

The R&D investment in fast/big, non-magnetic, non-mechanical storage tech is too great and too far advanced in my way of thinking. We've certainly seen a lot of this type mechanical stuff come and go since the mid-80's.

The estimate is for over a 100 SSD OEM's this year in the marketplace, and with Intel's entry, things will most probably continue to go that way.

The newest offerings from BiTMICRO, Memoright, Mtron, and Samsung are 1.8"-2.5" form factors and all do at least 100-120MB sustained writes and all have SATA interfaces.

We still have boxes of cartridge-based disks sitting on a shelf somewhere, that we hope to never pay for again. It's just not as good as SSD, period. It may be cheaper...but I'll bet money you'll live to regret it if you buy into it.

My two bits

John Jay · March 21st, 2008, 01:24 PM

23 pages - too much to read, if my question has already been asked then apologies.

Ok, can this unit record the 35mm full frame output of a Nikon D3 liveview via HDMI?

Serge Victorovich · March 21st, 2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Jay

23 pages - too much to read, if my question has already been asked then apologies.

Ok, can this unit record the 35mm full frame output of a Nikon D3 liveview via HDMI?

Yes. Because HDMI limited to HD (1920x1080) resolution :)

Andrew Swihart · March 22nd, 2008, 01:51 PM

"record the 35mm full frame output of a Nikon D3 liveview via HDMI"

Wow, this seems like it basically turns the D3 into a camcorder! How does the D3 compare to the HV20, and what framerate(s) does it record at?

Brian Standing · March 26th, 2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Swihart

"Wow, this seems like it basically turns the D3 into a camcorder!"

Man, this would be a dream come true! If this is possible, I would strongly advise Cineform to make the analog audio inputs a reality. I would love to see the day when I could set up a Nikon DSLR, a good microphone hooked up to a mic pre-amp and route the HD video and audio signal to a Cineform SOLID unit that recorded both onto Compact Flash.

Talk about revolutionary! Can someone with a D3 please tell us if this is even possible?

Stephen Armour · March 26th, 2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Standing

Man, this would be a dream come true! If this is possible, I would strongly advise Cineform to make the analog audio inputs a reality. I would love to see the day when I could set up a Nikon DSLR, a good microphone hooked up to a mic pre-amp and route the HD video and audio signal to a Cineform SOLID unit that recorded both onto Compact Flash.

Talk about revolutionary! Can someone with a D3 please tell us if this is even possible?

To me, at first glance, this looks too good to be true, but.........
I'd have some questions like:

What kind of signal is REALLY coming out that HDMI port?
Is there any way to get RAW data out a HDMI port?
What processing is applied to the signal BEFORE it comes out?
Why would a major manufacturer want to threaten their higher end video cam lines by making a HD "solution" that would only need separate audio recording and utilizes all their good lenses?

Something somewhere is just too good to be true ... these guys are too wiley for that...

Brian Standing · March 26th, 2008, 03:47 PM

To the best of my knowledge, neither Cineform nor Nikon make any kind of "higher end" video camera, or for that matter, any "video" camera at all. So, I don't think they'd have much to lose.

It seems like there are a few key things we'd need to find out:

1. Does the Nikon send a live feed off the CMOS sensor out the HDMI port when the camera is in shooting mode? OR

2. Is the HDMI port just for viewing pictures already taken?

If 1., then we'd need to know the frame rate and what kind of processing is done before it sends the video signal out the HDMI port.

Stephen Armour · March 26th, 2008, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Standing

To the best of my knowledge, neither Cineform nor Nikon make any kind of "higher end" video camera, or for that matter, any "video" camera at all. So, I don't think they'd have much to lose.

It seems like there are a few key things we'd need to find out:

1. Does the Nikon send a live feed off the CMOS sensor out the HDMI port when the camera is in shooting mode? OR

2. Is the HDMI port just for viewing pictures already taken?

If 1., then we'd need to know the frame rate and what kind of processing is done before it sends the video signal out the HDMI port.

Don't recall refering to or even suggesting Cineform as making cameras...but you're right about the Nikon. Brain spasm for sure...problem was I've been reading about the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III and it has video out and "Live view". The Sony and the Canon got mixed together in my brain.

Must be lack of chocolate...

Anyway, comment on the manufacturers motives aside, the questions still stand.

Zack Birlew · March 27th, 2008, 09:41 PM

For those wondering about the video output on the Nikon D3 or, in my case, D300, read my post here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=117734

In short, it's not looking good for practical use.

John Jay · March 30th, 2008, 01:44 PM

Since my earlier post, which was sparked by frame grabs I saw on the bottom of this page which look pretty good

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond3/page9.asp

it appears the LV HDMI is only about 15 fps.

As for overheating - this doesnt apply since the on camera display is turned off when HDMI is connected - which is the primary source of heat generation..

So we must wait for the D4...

If Nikon go with the latest FF35mm Sony chip in the D4, then it should get interesting.

D3 output at 6400 ISO is amazing

Jay Bloomfield · April 11th, 2008, 02:07 PM

I've been watching this thread for awhile. It seems like there are a lot of good suggestions to add to the concept and some of those may eventually be incorporated, since Cineform is developing, "a range of recorders". But I would suggest that the concept recorder (on the CF website) might also benefit from having an even simpler little brother, in a fashion similar to the portable audio recorders sold by Sony and Zoom, etc.. Zoom has the bigger H4 and the smaller H2. Sony has the bigger PCM-D1 (~$2K US list) and the smaller PCM-D50 (generally available in the sub-$500 range)

The CF recorder "mini" would only have a small digital numerical display/buttons to indicate status and to control the unit. It would have one 16 GB CF card as the media, only HDMI in and no output ports at all. With a little effort, the size of the unit could be reduced to that of a a pack of playing cards.

BTW, I suspect that someone will soon develop a similar unit, but the codec will be AVCHD.

Andrew Wahlquist · April 11th, 2008, 04:14 PM

Just stumbled across this-- awesome little box, I wish it were here today!

Regarding audio connectors... do most of the HDMI camcorders take their audio inputs and embed the signal into the HDMI, or are they lame and don't do that? I'm assuming that that's why this is a discussion at all. Otherwise, there's no point in audio connectors. If you did have them, though, do not settle for anything less than XLR connectors-- Cineform is for professionals, and professionals need to use balanced audio. (you could also try "mini xlr" if you're worried about space, and provide some adapters). Don't use BNC for audio, it's way out of spec to do that.

http://www.futurlec.com/XLR-MiniXLR.shtml

March 21st, 2008, 09:52 AM	#331
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	Duhhhhhhh. Excuse my ignorance, but since when does any cam have "bi-directional USB or e-sata" ports with video out? Sounds like any portable USB/eSATA drive! And even more, why would that replace CF? One of the reasons we use it in the field is to process the video from the SDI or HDMI before it's compressed, thus getting the bump to 10-bit and 4:2:2 and having ready to edit material when we return to the studio. If they're talking "removable" as in RED or something, this news is in the wrong place. __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"

March 21st, 2008, 10:44 AM	#332
Fredrik-Larsson Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Malmö, Sweden Posts: 395	I think that he ment CF in the term Compact Flash and not CF as in Cineform... it can be a bit confusing... iVDR seem to be a new standard for removable disk. Check out http://www.ivdr.org/iVDR/ivdr_e.html for more info on it. Basically that would be the storage part of the solution. Probably more manufacturers are making solutions that bridges between a camera and the storage in the same fashion the Cineform HDMI recorder will. __________________ The Russian Captain (upcoming feature) http://trc-movie.blogspot.com/ My movies http://www.larssonfilm.com/

March 21st, 2008, 12:29 PM	#334
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	iVDR seems like a short-lived bridge technology to me.........(sort of like BluRay will prove to be). The R&D investment in fast/big, non-magnetic, non-mechanical storage tech is too great and too far advanced in my way of thinking. We've certainly seen a lot of this type mechanical stuff come and go since the mid-80's. The estimate is for over a 100 SSD OEM's this year in the marketplace, and with Intel's entry, things will most probably continue to go that way. The newest offerings from BiTMICRO, Memoright, Mtron, and Samsung are 1.8"-2.5" form factors and all do at least 100-120MB sustained writes and all have SATA interfaces. We still have boxes of cartridge-based disks sitting on a shelf somewhere, that we hope to never pay for again. It's just not as good as SSD, period. It may be cheaper...but I'll bet money you'll live to regret it if you buy into it. My two bits __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"

March 21st, 2008, 01:24 PM	#335
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	23 pages - too much to read, if my question has already been asked then apologies. Ok, can this unit record the 35mm full frame output of a Nikon D3 liveview via HDMI? __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

March 26th, 2008, 03:47 PM	#340
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	To the best of my knowledge, neither Cineform nor Nikon make any kind of "higher end" video camera, or for that matter, any "video" camera at all. So, I don't think they'd have much to lose. It seems like there are a few key things we'd need to find out: 1. Does the Nikon send a live feed off the CMOS sensor out the HDMI port when the camera is in shooting mode? OR 2. Is the HDMI port just for viewing pictures already taken? If 1., then we'd need to know the frame rate and what kind of processing is done before it sends the video signal out the HDMI port. __________________ http://www.prolefeedstudios.com/blog/ Documentary for the masses!

March 22nd, 2008, 01:51 PM	#337
Andrew Swihart Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 25	"record the 35mm full frame output of a Nikon D3 liveview via HDMI" Wow, this seems like it basically turns the D3 into a camcorder! How does the D3 compare to the HV20, and what framerate(s) does it record at?

March 27th, 2008, 09:41 PM	#342
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	For those wondering about the video output on the Nikon D3 or, in my case, D300, read my post here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=117734 In short, it's not looking good for practical use. __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

March 30th, 2008, 01:44 PM	#343
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Since my earlier post, which was sparked by frame grabs I saw on the bottom of this page which look pretty good http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond3/page9.asp it appears the LV HDMI is only about 15 fps. As for overheating - this doesnt apply since the on camera display is turned off when HDMI is connected - which is the primary source of heat generation.. So we must wait for the D4... If Nikon go with the latest FF35mm Sony chip in the D4, then it should get interesting. D3 output at 6400 ISO is amazing __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

April 11th, 2008, 02:07 PM	#344
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	I've been watching this thread for awhile. It seems like there are a lot of good suggestions to add to the concept and some of those may eventually be incorporated, since Cineform is developing, "a range of recorders". But I would suggest that the concept recorder (on the CF website) might also benefit from having an even simpler little brother, in a fashion similar to the portable audio recorders sold by Sony and Zoom, etc.. Zoom has the bigger H4 and the smaller H2. Sony has the bigger PCM-D1 (~$2K US list) and the smaller PCM-D50 (generally available in the sub-$500 range) The CF recorder "mini" would only have a small digital numerical display/buttons to indicate status and to control the unit. It would have one 16 GB CF card as the media, only HDMI in and no output ports at all. With a little effort, the size of the unit could be reduced to that of a a pack of playing cards. BTW, I suspect that someone will soon develop a similar unit, but the codec will be AVCHD.

April 11th, 2008, 04:14 PM	#345
Andrew Wahlquist New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 16	Awesome! Just stumbled across this-- awesome little box, I wish it were here today! Regarding audio connectors... do most of the HDMI camcorders take their audio inputs and embed the signal into the HDMI, or are they lame and don't do that? I'm assuming that that's why this is a discussion at all. Otherwise, there's no point in audio connectors. If you did have them, though, do not settle for anything less than XLR connectors-- Cineform is for professionals, and professionals need to use balanced audio. (you could also try "mini xlr" if you're worried about space, and provide some adapters). Don't use BNC for audio, it's way out of spec to do that. http://www.futurlec.com/XLR-MiniXLR.shtml